Author Topic: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.  (Read 6923 times)

Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« on: October 21, 2021, 08:37:12 PM »
Actor Alec Baldwin accidentally fired a prop gun on a movie set in New Mexico killing a cinematographer and injuring the director of a movie they were filming.

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 03:04:36 PM by Andrew Costa Mesa »
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Offline alyssa

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Actor Alec Baldwin is in serious trouble after he fired a prop gun on a movie set in New Mexico killing a cinematographer and injuring the director of a movie they were filming.  Authorities are investigating whether it was an accident.

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I have heard about properly loaded PROP weapons' accidentally discharging a projectile that killed someone before. I believe it was a rare occurrence prior to the Crow shooting.
I believe it had to do with incomplete combustion & wad's of paper that didn't burn.  I very well could be miss remembering that tidbit tho!
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Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 09:14:59 PM »
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I have heard about properly loaded PROP weapons' accidentally discharging a projectile that killed someone before. I believe it was a rare occurrence prior to the Crow shooting.
I believe it had to do with incomplete combustion & wad's of paper that didn't burn.  I very well could be miss remembering that tidbit tho!

I still have memories of Jon Erik-Hexum, who was killed playing with a prop gun in 1984 on the CBS series “Cover Up” that he co-starred with Jennifer O’Neil.  Obviously, not everybody is aware a blank is just as lethal as a regular bullet when shot close enough.  My first reaction regarding Alec was it was an accident.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 03:05:36 PM by Andrew Costa Mesa »
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Offline perc2100

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1. There are some incredibly dangerous accusations here, with very little public information: "...killing cinematographer" is pretty declarative and presumes guilt.
2. For folks who've never worked on a movie set, or know little about working on an actin movie set, your opinion on this matter is likely WILDLY uninformed.  That's not an insult, it's just a fact; just as I would never presume to know details involved with a NASA shuttle launch, for example, maybe it's unwise to speak much more than "what a tragic incident: perhaps Hollywood can strive to NEVER have this happen again."'
3. FWIW, there are so many layers involved in the 'who' and 'how' this happened: from the prop master, to the on-set armorer, to actors and director and rest of crew.  While the media has done a fairly poor job immediately ID'ing Alec Baldwin as the actor who allegedly fired the gun in question (I get the 'easy' reporting route since he's an identifiable actor who discharged the weapon, but that wasn't confirmed by authorities until Friday morning), it's incredibly unfair to paint _him_ in the light as the person at fault (i.e. "killing cinematographer").  I recommend anyone interested in this (albeit morbid) scenario do a little bit of googling and hear what actor Michael Massee has to say about his experience on the set of THE CROW.  He was the actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee, and he's been pretty honest about the guilt he's carried for the rest of his life.

I'm sincerely not speaking directly to anyone in particular, just issuing caution in how we immediately react to this terrible tragedy at this stage.  I have been on some movie sets, and moreso than any art medium filmmaking is a collaborative art: it literally takes a village to get from idea to the finished product.  Deaths on movie sets aren't common, but they aren't exactly uncommon either (especially when it comes to stunt performers, unfortunately, who often bear the literal brunt of slashed budgets and time constraints).  The death of an 'up-and-coming' cinematographer, and the injury to the director, are horrible tragedies that maybe could've been prevented one way or the other.

That being said, I wonder why in this day-and-age we're still using blanks on movie sets?!  I know the likely argument is "the muzzle flash = realism + easier for actors to react to both the recoil of the weapon AND the visual of the flash."  But we very rarely see practical blood shots/'gags' on sets nowadays: we see CGI (and even with blanks we often see CGI enhanced muzzle flashes).  Guns w/blanks are _never_ used in close-quarter gun fights (think JOHN WICK movies) because blanks still propel deadly ordinance: blanks are often used with, say, someone firing a machine gun at someone/thing off-camera  where there is little/no danger involved.  It seems crazy to me that productions are still using blanks of any kind, especially given how much they can delay shooting schedules (note: to use blanks on a set, you have to 1) go through at least 30 mins. of safety training PER SHOT 2) go through a set-up for every take to ensure the gun is loaded safely and properly and ready to go 3) HOPE that the muzzle flash wasn't quick enough to to be missed via shutter being closed, which happens frequently and requires the muzzle flash to be CGI'ed ANYWAY!). 
Maybe this tragedy will be the final straw that most thought the Brandon Lee death in the mid-90's would've been as far as using 100% safe, ordinance-free shooting methods.

Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2021, 12:46:07 PM »
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1. There are some incredibly dangerous accusations here, with very little public information: "...killing cinematographer" is pretty declarative and presumes guilt.
2. For folks who've never worked on a movie set, or know little about working on an actin movie set, your opinion on this matter is likely WILDLY uninformed.  That's not an insult, it's just a fact; just as I would never presume to know details involved with a NASA shuttle launch, for example, maybe it's unwise to speak much more than "what a tragic incident: perhaps Hollywood can strive to NEVER have this happen again."'
3. FWIW, there are so many layers involved in the 'who' and 'how' this happened: from the prop master, to the on-set armorer, to actors and director and rest of crew.  While the media has done a fairly poor job immediately ID'ing Alec Baldwin as the actor who allegedly fired the gun in question (I get the 'easy' reporting route since he's an identifiable actor who discharged the weapon, but that wasn't confirmed by authorities until Friday morning), it's incredibly unfair to paint _him_ in the light as the person at fault (i.e. "killing cinematographer").  I recommend anyone interested in this (albeit morbid) scenario do a little bit of googling and hear what actor Michael Massee has to say about his experience on the set of THE CROW.  He was the actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee, and he's been pretty honest about the guilt he's carried for the rest of his life.

I'm sincerely not speaking directly to anyone in particular, just issuing caution in how we immediately react to this terrible tragedy at this stage.  I have been on some movie sets, and moreso than any art medium filmmaking is a collaborative art: it literally takes a village to get from idea to the finished product.  Deaths on movie sets aren't common, but they aren't exactly uncommon either (especially when it comes to stunt performers, unfortunately, who often bear the literal brunt of slashed budgets and time constraints).  The death of an 'up-and-coming' cinematographer, and the injury to the director, are horrible tragedies that maybe could've been prevented one way or the other.

That being said, I wonder why in this day-and-age we're still using blanks on movie sets?!  I know the likely argument is "the muzzle flash = realism + easier for actors to react to both the recoil of the weapon AND the visual of the flash."  But we very rarely see practical blood shots/'gags' on sets nowadays: we see CGI (and even with blanks we often see CGI enhanced muzzle flashes).  Guns w/blanks are _never_ used in close-quarter gun fights (think JOHN WICK movies) because blanks still propel deadly ordinance: blanks are often used with, say, someone firing a machine gun at someone/thing off-camera  where there is little/no danger involved.  It seems crazy to me that productions are still using blanks of any kind, especially given how much they can delay shooting schedules (note: to use blanks on a set, you have to 1) go through at least 30 mins. of safety training PER SHOT 2) go through a set-up for every take to ensure the gun is loaded safely and properly and ready to go 3) HOPE that the muzzle flash wasn't quick enough to to be missed via shutter being closed, which happens frequently and requires the muzzle flash to be CGI'ed ANYWAY!). 
Maybe this tragedy will be the final straw that most thought the Brandon Lee death in the mid-90's would've been as far as using 100% safe, ordinance-free shooting methods.

Changed the wording of my title.
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Offline chocolateshake

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1. There are some incredibly dangerous accusations here, with very little public information: "...killing cinematographer" is pretty declarative and presumes guilt.

I agree.  I first heard about it on this thread.  Then I saw the CNN breaking news story about it.  Completely different tone.  CNN said there was an accident on a movie set.  Tragic, but no accusations against any individual.  CNN just said that the Sheriff was investigating.

Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2021, 04:34:46 PM »
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That being said, I wonder why in this day-and-age we're still using blanks on movie sets?!  I know the likely argument is "the muzzle flash = realism + easier for actors to react to both the recoil of the weapon AND the visual of the flash."  But we very rarely see practical blood shots/'gags' on sets nowadays: we see CGI (and even with blanks we often see CGI enhanced muzzle flashes).  Guns w/blanks are _never_ used in close-quarter gun fights (think JOHN WICK movies) because blanks still propel deadly ordinance: blanks are often used with, say, someone firing a machine gun at someone/thing off-camera  where there is little/no danger involved.  It seems crazy to me that productions are still using blanks of any kind, especially given how much they can delay shooting schedules (note: to use blanks on a set, you have to 1) go through at least 30 mins. of safety training PER SHOT 2) go through a set-up for every take to ensure the gun is loaded safely and properly and ready to go 3) HOPE that the muzzle flash wasn't quick enough to to be missed via shutter being closed, which happens frequently and requires the muzzle flash to be CGI'ed ANYWAY!). 
Maybe this tragedy will be the final straw that most thought the Brandon Lee death in the mid-90's would've been as far as using 100% safe, ordinance-free shooting methods.

Hours before the tragic accident, five members of the camera crew walked off the set and quit abruptly complaining about long hours, long commutes and collecting their paychecks, according to three people familiar with the matter who were not authorized to comment.

Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to production managers about gun safety on the set.

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set that day said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges on Saturday.

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 04:37:26 PM by Andrew Costa Mesa »
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Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2021, 04:56:36 PM »
On a personal note, I did work on a movie set 15 years ago where real guns were used but no ammunition, not even blanks, caps or fake ammunition.  That was going to be taken care of in post.

I concede I jumped the shark here. 

This was because I was basing it on his reputation as a hothead and that he has an explosive temper.

But you’re right.  Regardless of his reputation, I should not jump to conclusions.  I’m glad my assumptions were wrong.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 05:04:36 PM by Andrew Costa Mesa »
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Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2021, 07:09:48 PM »
According to the warrant, Baldwin was told the gun was cold when it was handed to him.  It didn't even have blanks.  It should have been empty.  Instead, apparently, it had not a blank in it but a live round.  A blank, even at close range, should not have been able to go completely through one person and wound another.

So it looks like there were at least two compounding mistakes.  Why was it announced that the gun was cold when it was given to him?  More importantly, why was there a live round on set?

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2021, 09:45:59 PM »
It sounds like there was extreme irresponsibility on the set.  According to an affidavit, an assistant director gave Alec the gun and told him it was cold.  It’s my understanding an assistant director is not supposed to handle weapons, that is supposed to be the job of the person responsible solely for prop weapons on the set.  This sounds like a safety violation many advocates for below-the-line crews are complaining about.

I also believe for any cinematographer who has to work on any film shoot where weapons are part of the script, that has to be really hazardous.  This is because there are scenes where actors are firing the gun directly at the camera, hence, the visuals of the actor firing the gun at the audience or the viewer.

I hope these issues were raised in negotiations between the crews and the producers.  Having worked on several film shoots myself, I can attest the working conditions leave a lot to be desired.

The biggest one for me is I have barely enough time to sleep when I return home at the end of the day and have to leave for work the next morning.  Ten hours is not enough, it needs to be twelve.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 10:16:26 PM by Andrew Costa Mesa »
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Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2021, 11:06:12 PM »
Well, I have egg on my face.

I read the articles from the Los Angeles Times and the AP.  Alec Baldwin, in my opinion, is not to blame for what happened.  I believe he and many others, were victims of an unprofessional film production company.  The armorer, or the person responsible for handling prop weapons on the set, may have given the assistant director wrong info that the gun was cold when in fact it did have a projectile in it.

Also, the crews were promised that they would be compensated for staying at nearby hotels.  When that didn’t happen, they were told to make the long trek from Albuquerque to Santa Fe, risking an auto accident should someone fall asleep at the wheel.  Also, the production replaced union crews with non-union crews.  When the union crews protested this, the production called security to throw them out.

This is just as scandalous as the filmmakers making the movie about Gregg Allman in Georgia when one of the camera operators was killed by a moving train.

Apparently the above-the-line filmmakers haven’t learned a damn thing about that and the grievances from the film crews before a threatened strike/walkout.
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Offline SteveD

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2021, 05:16:05 AM »
ABC’s ‘The Rookie’ Bans “Live” Guns on Set, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Quote
ABC cop drama The Rookie is banning “live” weapons on its set, effective immediately, following the fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin’s Rust.

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2021, 10:34:37 AM »
I wish the media would stop calling them "prop guns".  That gives off the impression that they are fake guns.  They aren't.  They are real guns.  The only difference is the ammo.

The head armorer gave an interview about another movie she worked on about a month ago.  According to press reports, she said that she had to call her dad for help concerning loading blanks during that interview.

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2021, 11:38:43 AM »
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I wish the media would stop calling them "prop guns".  That gives off the impression that they are fake guns.  They aren't.  They are real guns.  The only difference is the ammo.

The head armorer gave an interview about another movie she worked on about a month ago.  According to press reports, she said that she had to call her dad for help concerning loading blanks during that interview.

The armorer is just 24 years old.  That's a lot of responsibility for a 24 year old.

Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills cinematographer with prop gun.
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2021, 02:25:20 PM »
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The armorer is just 24 years old.  That's a lot of responsibility for a 24 year old.

There will be lawsuits.
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