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Con Suite => Movies and TV Shows => Topic started by: perc2100 on August 03, 2022, 08:11:17 PM

Title: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 03, 2022, 08:11:17 PM
In the Current Events: Media Chat thread, this light discussion came up:
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Yeah the new execs from the new ownership are really throwing things in turmoil.  They're dropping the nearly-completed BATGIRL as well as the Scooby-Do sequel film SCOOB: HIOLIDY HAUNT.  Not only that, I read this morning that HBO Max quietly dropped a half dozen 'HBO Max Exclusive' films in order to not have to pay residuals to talent for low-performing content. https://variety.com/2022/digital/news/hbo-max-removes-warner-bros-films-streaming-exclusive-1235332258/  (https://variety.com/2022/digital/news/hbo-max-removes-warner-bros-films-streaming-exclusive-1235332258/)
This _could_ be as simple as 1) cost-cutting and 2) new executive dumping old executives projects: a not-uncommon thing with Hollywood studios.  Crazy, though, to dump $90m in a film and not even shift it to HBO Max.

Will be curious to see what they do w/THE FLASH next June...
You know, the more I think about this the more it's hard to not argue that Warner Bros handling of the DC Extend Universe has been the biggest studio blunder of the 21st Century.  "The Flash," CW's series, is ending after it's 9th season/150+ episodes: it debuted a few weeks before Ezra Miller's FLASH film was announced.  Originally set for release in March 2018, the Flash film was announced along with other DCEU films such as THE CYBORG solo movie, JUSTICE LEAGUE 2, and GREEN LANTERN CORPS.  Now the remnants of that DCEU feel not unlike a graveyard of movies that never were, with projects crashing and burning for one reason or another.

All the while, released DCEU films, many helmed and shepherded by Zach Snyder, failed to meet either critical or financial expectations.  While bright spots like the Wonder Woman series had massive misfire for a sequel, with AQUAMAN 2 being a current unknown. 

There have been high points, with films that mostly ignored the DCEU or merely tiptoed in its puddles.  SHAZAM did good business and was critically received, while THE SUICIDE SQUAD was critically acclaimed albeit did bad business when released amidst a pandemic + day-and-date streaming (though it was one of HBO Max's biggest streaming films of all-time upon streaming release, and was well-liked enough by WB execs that they green lit a "Peacemaker" spinoff series that did well & was green lit for a 2nd season).  There was also the 'else worlds'-esque JOKER film that made $1 billion+, won awards, and has a sequel on the way (with a release date announced this week).

What will the future hold?  For the DCEU continuity that feels mostly dead, with Aquaman kicking around until he proves not financially viable, Wonder Woman being unknown, and a Flash film set for release next summer that will certainly be a marketing nightmare for WB with its title name star in hiding and wanted for at least questioning for several felonies.  Blue Beetle is also on the horizon, along with what we saw in Hall H with the Shazam sequel and BLACK ADAM looking promising.

But those films are already done or almost done (not that that stopped WB for canning BATGIRL for what now seems to be a tax write-off, meaning it will never be allowed to be released for any sort of financial profit).  I would find it hard to imagine creatives wanting to get in business with WB Discovery anytime soon; hell, I haven't even gotten into the debacle that will likely be announced Thursday at their quarterly earnings call that will likely spell the beginning of the end for HBO Max, to be folded into Discovery+.  They already canceled series that already had complete seasons in the can!  Oh, and this was AFTER the old regime ticked off creatives by going day-and-date release on HBO Max in 2021 w/out working out deals with directors & actors first, or even really telling them before it hit the press!

Don't get me wrong: I'm a big DC fan.  I grew up preferring DC comics over Marvel, grew up with the Reeve Superman films and was in HS (or almost in HS) for the Burton BATMAN films: two comic book series that literally changed the game & began to pave the way for the renaissance of comic films & series we have nowadays with Marvel Studios!  I even think HBO Max is easily the best streaming service out there when it comes to films and variety: they have TCM classic films (as well as Cartoon Network series, among many others)!!  The current CEO has been at Discovery a long time and has been at the top of overseeing garbage reality TV programming over quality scripted programming.  I hope WB Discovery can steer what feels like a quickly sinking ship around sooner than later.  But it's really hard thinking things won't get much worse for HBO Max/DC/WB Discovery before they get better: and I don't see things getting better anytime in the near or near-distant future. 
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Mel on August 03, 2022, 11:18:20 PM
Word is that the new CEO wants to kill HBO Max. The Batgirl movie was an HBO Max original as was the Scoob! movie. Neither were meant for wide theatrical release.

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Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: alyssa on August 04, 2022, 09:44:51 AM
so house of dragons is next ?


no citation, just wild speculation on my part
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 04, 2022, 10:01:55 AM
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so house of dragons is next ?


no citation, just wild speculation on my part
It's hard telling: that's certainly a very expensive series, but I think that's also an HBO series, not an HBO Max exclusive?  It would appear the new guy in charge is mostly dismantling HBO Max (which is a damned shame, since IMO it's the best streamer for movies + HBO's series legit invented prestige TV + many other factors - Studio Ghibli, adult swim, Loony Tunes, etc).
I've been an HBO Max subscriber from the beginning, mostly because I've been an HBO app subscriber for a loooong time: I'm really hating seeing it dismantled like this  :(
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: accelerate on August 04, 2022, 10:52:47 AM
Slightly off-topic, whatever happened to the plans for merging HBO Max with Discovery+? I've pretty much gone through all the sciency-stuff in the library, and I'm kinda holding onto Discovery+ only because of the potential consolidation of the two services.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: chocolateshake on August 04, 2022, 11:20:33 AM
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Slightly off-topic, whatever happened to the plans for merging HBO Max with Discovery+? I've pretty much gone through all the sciency-stuff in the library, and I'm kinda holding onto Discovery+ only because of the potential consolidation of the two services.

We'll find out in a few hours when they announce earnings and future plans.  But I think it's already been mentioned that there will be sharing of content on the various services.  Discovery content on HBO Max and CNN content on Discovery.

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It's hard telling: that's certainly a very expensive series, but I think that's also an HBO series, not an HBO Max exclusive?

More specifically, Batgirl is a made for steaming movie.  That seems to be what's being cut, not a series like House of Dragons.  I think the goal is to have all future DC movies be theatrical releases.  Batgirl the streaming movie is not good enough for that.  So in the end it's worth more to Time Warner to take it as a write down than release it in any form.

I think this is a fall out of the various pandemic era strategies.  Time Warner decided to release their films straight to streaming.  Paramount held Top Gun until the pandemic lightened enough for theaters to reopen.  Top Gun made a killing.  Releasing straight to streaming didn't.  It did boost subscribers but recent Netflix results have shown that adding subscribers for adding subscribers sake is not a good long term strategy.  Those subscribers need to be monetized.

So I think the strategy shift for TW is that movies should be released theatrically first, then eventually go to streaming.  The old model.  That's where the money is.  The strategy for the last couple of years of direct to streaming isn't working.  Thus the made for streaming movies are being cut.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 04, 2022, 03:59:59 PM
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Slightly off-topic, whatever happened to the plans for merging HBO Max with Discovery+? I've pretty much gone through all the sciency-stuff in the library, and I'm kinda holding onto Discovery+ only because of the potential consolidation of the two services.
According to their earnings call today, that _will_ be happening in 2023: in the US, sometime summer of 2023
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 04, 2022, 04:23:39 PM
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We'll find out in a few hours when they announce earnings and future plans.  But I think it's already been mentioned that there will be sharing of content on the various services.  Discovery content on HBO Max and CNN content on Discovery.

More specifically, Batgirl is a made for steaming movie.  That seems to be what's being cut, not a series like House of Dragons.  I think the goal is to have all future DC movies be theatrical releases.  Batgirl the streaming movie is not good enough for that.  So in the end it's worth more to Time Warner to take it as a write down than release it in any form.

I think this is a fall out of the various pandemic era strategies.  Time Warner decided to release their films straight to streaming.  Paramount held Top Gun until the pandemic lightened enough for theaters to reopen.  Top Gun made a killing.  Releasing straight to streaming didn't.  It did boost subscribers but recent Netflix results have shown that adding subscribers for adding subscribers sake is not a good long term strategy.  Those subscribers need to be monetized.

So I think the strategy shift for TW is that movies should be released theatrically first, then eventually go to streaming.  The old model.  That's where the money is.  The strategy for the last couple of years of direct to streaming isn't working.  Thus the made for streaming movies are being cut.
I think, based on verbiage used in the earnings call, that there will be little/no 'exclusive' streaming content moving forward.  If WBD can release something in theaters (maybe w/a shorter window for some likely lesser-performing films), so be it.  But I think both exclusive series & films that are ONLY meant to stream on HBO Max are a thing of the past.
As for BATGIRL, I think we can look at it one or maybe two ways:
1. what you said - it was a streaming-only thing and WBD doesn't want to do that anymore
BUT ALSO
2. it _will_ be used as a $90 million tax write-off so it will essentially be shelved in perpetuity.

I've read from some former Discovery employees on social media that this type of thing is par for the course for this current executive: a sort of slash-and-burn talent/employees in order to maximize profits (and we're not talking _losing_ profit, we're talking about "profits weren't as high as we wanted them" - WB still had significant revenue first quarter 2022 compared w/1st quarter 2021).  IMO following the earnings call, this is not going to be good for consumers; they're likely going to make some stuff only available on HBO to subscribers while other 'content' will be combined w/Discovery+ HBO Max merger (likely at what I can only presume to be a higher cost).  It sounded like they're also interested in licensing other IP, which will take more off of HBO Max.

As a long-time HBO Max subscriber, none of this is pleasing to me.  There's a reason I'm not a Discovery+ subscriber (because I mostly don't care about non-scripted "reality" TV), and I'm not interested in paying more for an HBO subscription and getting less content with added Discovery+ garbage "added."

THAT ALL BEING SAID....

I didn't mean for this thread to be about the HBO Max/WB Discover fiasco.  I was thinking explicitly about the DCEU approach that WB has had now for nearly a decade that they have fumbled BADLY (and I'm not even counting their soft Superman reboot awhile back with SUPERMAN RETURNS, though its financial shortcomings and 'meh' critical reception almost certainly led WB towards Snyder's radically different Superman interpretation).  The stories are intertwined, for sure, I was just being a bit more explicit about how multiple WB top executives keep fumbling the DC brand.

And it'll come as no surprise that on today's call there was comparison with Marvel Studios' handling of their brand, and how DC will emulate them (again).  It was said that there is an entire team dedicated to enacting a 10 year plan of DC properties (again).

Sounds very similar to 2014's announcement:

* 2016 BATMAN v SUPERMAN & SUICIDE SQUAD
* 2017 WONDER WOMAN & JUSTICE LEAGUE part 1
* 2018 THE FLASH + AQUAMAN + 'Untitled DC Film'
* 2019 SHAZAM + JUSTICE LEAGUE part 2 + Untitled DC film
* 2020 CYBORG & GREEN LANTERN CORPS

Only today there was no actual announcement (it was a financial call, after all).  I suspect there will be a FanDome announcement, and I was kinda surprised there wasn't one announced today.  2021 FanDome was October 16, so there is still plenty of time for WBD to get their act together for that.  IMO, this is in the _very_ early stages and I suspect WBD doesn't really know what they're doing yet other than telling investors "we plan on copying the strategy of the hottest studio of the last 10+ years" (though they have no problems introducing characters in streaming series that will then feature in theatrical films, ala John Walker who will almost certainly be in THUNDERBOLTS, or Ms. Marvel who will feature in MARVELS).  This feels more like a slight knee-jerk reaction to the company having financial issues from 2021's plan of day-and-date streaming/theatrical releases.

Also, I think they may have a difficult time convincing talent to go with them: completely yanking a movie from release that's nearly finished for the seeming purpose of a tax write-off (and believe me: no matter what WBD says publicly to control spin, the perception is this was a cash-dump) is not the way to win over creatives.  BAD BOYS FOR LIFE directing team sounded pretty upset about this movie dumping their BATGIRL, and while there's a definite asterisk to the title that film WAS the highest-grossing film of 2020.

Reminder that "Peacemaker" was an HBO Max-exclusive, and short of making it both an HBO series that will stream on Max, regardless of what James Gunn thinks/says publicly right now I suspect there's nothing stopping WBD from pulling the plug on its 2nd season (that at best is in really early pre-production, and may not be anything more than some scripts-written)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: chocolateshake on August 05, 2022, 12:06:06 PM
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BUT ALSO
2. it _will_ be used as a $90 million tax write-off so it will essentially be shelved in perpetuity.

Yep, that's what I meant by write down.

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Reminder that "Peacemaker" was an HBO Max-exclusive, and short of making it both an HBO series that will stream on Max, regardless of what James Gunn thinks/says publicly right now I suspect there's nothing stopping WBD from pulling the plug on its 2nd season (that at best is in really early pre-production, and may not be anything more than some scripts-written)

I don't think that's going to happen.  If it was going to get cancelled, the best time for that would have been yesterday.  The best time to announce bad news is when your stock is getting hammered.  It's best to get it out all at once.

The new CEO isn't shy about cancelling things.  He cancelled the $300 million CNN+ service a month after launch.  But that's an example of his emphasis.  He wants quality over quantity.  Honestly, I never understood the point of CNN+.  CNN is already a cable network and a cnn.com was already a service that streamed.  What was the value added of CNN+?

Quality is the elephant in the room in regards to the Batgirl movie.  It seems it simply wasn't good.  If I remember right, a quote reported from a test screening was that it "wasn't bad".  That's not a resounding endorsement.  So in the end, I think that was the main reason it was cancelled.  It just wasn't good.  Which goes back to the subject of this thread.  The new CEO seems to agree with your sentiments.  That's why he's doing a reset of the DC properties.  He wants a MCU like future for it.  With quality products that can be released theatrically.  Theaters first, streaming later.

It's just not Batgirl that's been cancelled, Raised by Wolves was also cancelled.  I love Ridley Scott, I love science fiction.  So of course I watched it, both seasons.  But TBH, I was surprised when it got renewed for a second season.  It's not good.  I think I referred to it as a 70's era B movie when it came out.

There's also another factor with the strategy change.  Warner alienated a lot of talent with it's straight to streaming strategy.  Directors were outraged that their movies went straight to streaming.  I think this is an effort to rebuild bridges.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 09, 2022, 12:12:32 PM
Interesting update to this bit of current events:

WBD declared they were no longer creating films exclusively to stream on HBO Max: instead they'll create films for theatrical release, then for streaming.

Meanwhile, Hulu debuted PREY last weekend to not only high acclaim, but also record-breaking numbers: as well as doing gang-busters on Star+ or Disney+ in foreign markets.

Bottom line: there's isn't one way to release a film nowadays.  And at the end of the day, a _GOOD_ film will find its audience, be in theaters or streaming platform
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: chocolateshake on August 09, 2022, 01:06:07 PM
Unfortunately, like most streaming services, Hulu does not release numbers on individual products.  They only say things like it's the best performing product ever.  So it's hard to tell what that means.  It's a good movie.  I'm glad people are watching it.

In a twist, HBO Max played a role in why Prey didn't have a theatrical release.  Prey is a pre-merger Fox film.  By the merger agreement, if Disney released it in theaters then it would have been streamed on HBO Max.  It seems Disney didn't want it streamed on their streaming competitor.  So by foregoing the theatrical release and debuting it straight to streaming on Hulu, they were able to keep it off of HBO Max.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 09, 2022, 02:56:22 PM
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In a twist, HBO Max played a role in why Prey didn't have a theatrical release.  Prey is a pre-merger Fox film.  By the merger agreement, if Disney released it in theaters then it would have been streamed on HBO Max.  It seems Disney didn't want it streamed on their streaming competitor.  So by foregoing the theatrical release and debuting it straight to streaming on Hulu, they were able to keep it off of HBO Max.
:P :P :P
The plot thickens!

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Unfortunately, like most streaming services, Hulu does not release numbers on individual products.  They only say things like it's the best performing product ever.  So it's hard to tell what that means.  It's a good movie.  I'm glad people are watching it.
For sure.  I've read plenty of interviews/heard plenty of podcasts where showrunners have flat-out said streaming companies don't tell them viewership.  That's crazy that even showrunners, who presumably have some sort of financial stake when it comes to audience #'s, are kept in the dark about how much 'business' a streaming series gets.  Both the Ted Lasso folks last fall, and Ben Stiller w/Severance recently, have said Apple TV+ hasn't shared any audience numbers, but has merely told them "it's popular, we love it, we want to renew" or whatever.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 10, 2022, 11:49:28 AM
Hollywood Reporter article that talks a little bit more about recent WBD/DC film events:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/batgirl-cancellation-upcoming-dc-movies-1235196017/ (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/batgirl-cancellation-upcoming-dc-movies-1235196017/)
Quote
The mogul said there’d now be a team that would create a “10-year” plan for DC, although who’s on that team is unclear.

Of course, this is the 3rd "we have a mutli-/10-year plan!" type announcement DC/WB has made since their initial announcement of the Snyder-verse in 2013.  If I'm reading this article right, it seems they're maybe going to cut back the number of films released at a time going forward, and focus more on "quality."

Of course, the "quality" comment feels absolutely like a jab at the former CEO.  I mean, there isn't a film studio exec alive who doesn't want to release only "quality" films (and if I'm being blunt, Discovery Channel, where the current WBD CEO was last in charge before this promotion, is not exactly a bastion of high-quality original programming).  I mean, this is all smoke & mirrors at this time, and w/out any concrete announcements of whom is on the "team" of people developing a 10-year plan and what creatives will be part of that (this article DOES confirm that Peacemaker Season 2 + Blue Beatle are still part of the plans, as well as the Flash film already in the can).  Obviously that meant a lot more a month ago before WBD shelved a couple of nearly-completed films, but we'll see.  Taking them by their word the last regime did a good job of "right the ship," so to speak, and getting the DC brand back on track after the Synderverse didn't hit the way WB hoped it would.  I think Warner Bros. Discovery CEO David Zaslav is in a fortuitous place with the most recent & upcoming DC films: set-up for the company to not really skip much of a beat while he maneuvers as he sees fit.  I'll be curious to see who is part of the future for WBD/DC films moving forward
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on August 24, 2022, 05:57:11 PM
It was announced today that WBD is (again) moving the AQUAMAN sequel from March 2023 to December 2023, and also shifting the SHAZZAM sequel (again) from Aquaman's previous December 2022 slot to its more recent previous spring 2023 slot.  https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/aquaman-shazm-sequel-release-dates-1235191860/ (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/aquaman-shazm-sequel-release-dates-1235191860/)

Also revealed today, BATGIRL screenings have happened on the WB lot, getting some "funeral screenings" so at least _some_ audience can see the shelved film: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/aquaman-shazm-sequel-release-dates-1235191860/ (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/aquaman-shazm-sequel-release-dates-1235191860/)

And in seemingly related news, WB Discover has lost around $20billion in market cap trying to cut $3 Billion in costs  https://consequence.net/2022/08/warner-bros-discovery-market-cap-cut-costs/ (https://consequence.net/2022/08/warner-bros-discovery-market-cap-cut-costs/)
Market Cap is estimated value, and obviously WBD being $50+billion in debt doesn't help its market cap.
Now, I'm no financial expert, but this feels not-that-good for WBD as its goal was to immediately save money by cutting significant costs.  They've cut costs, and have still taken a substantial market hit.  I saw today its stock DID bounce back a bit, so perhaps they'll recover; its stock has been down about 4% this year.  Investers are seemingly declaring they're unimpressed with WBD's current cuts as far as WBD value is concerned.  One (of the few) thing I do know about stocks is that its a long game, so who knows how effective WBD's current CEO will be.
That's not really a concern of mine, of course, since I'm neither a WBD accountant or share holder.

But as a movie nerd I would much prefer to view films (especially ones with appearances of Michael Keaton's Batman that may set up future films/stories) and make my own decision on what is/isn't a "good" movie.  I'm not a fan of WBD shelving films, yanking films and TV series off of HBO Max that don't even have any other viewing outlets (hi Gravity Falls  >:( ) so I'm no fan of this current WBD administration. 
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on September 14, 2022, 12:18:52 PM
Another move from WBD in regards to the (sort of) DCEU.  A film premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival that seems to be a satire of the Joker character: with the take that Joker is a trans person.  I haven't seen this, and after WBD issued a cease & desist order it's plausible _no one_ will see this outside of the folks who saw the first screening at TIFF (the other screenings were canceled, and while it's no longer in competition it can still with the Audience prize).
The story is here: https://deadline.com/2022/09/the-peoples-joker-pulled-from-tiff-over-rights-issues-1235118725/ (https://deadline.com/2022/09/the-peoples-joker-pulled-from-tiff-over-rights-issues-1235118725/)

Awhile back there was a film that made stealthily at Disneyland & Walt Disney World called ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW.  It premiered at some film festival where it got a LOT of talk for both the way it was shot in the parks (w/out permission) but also thematically featured the dark 'underbelly' of Disney.  Some of the park's characters, namely those who dress as princesses in the park, are shown to be hookers.  The film is about a dad who finds out he's fired on the last day of his family's vacation, and he tries to keep it together and hide the news from his family while his fragile mental state quickly devolves into madness.  To be blunt, that film is not good, and with the exception of the guts it took to make (it was edited in another country with very loose copyright laws as the filmmaker was afraid Disney lawyers would confiscate the original workprint of the film), the film isn't notable at all.
Disney, however, reacted opposite of WBD: they simply ignored it, issued a 'no comment' about the film, and surmised (correctly) that after the film screened it would lose attention 100% after it premiered because it wasn't good.

I haven't seen THE PEOPLE'S JOKER and have no idea of its quality.  I'm also not at all surprised WBD would do everything to 'protect' their most precious intellectual property, and this blatantly violates copyright, trademark, etc. with Batman at least mentioned & other DC Batman villain characters are featured in the trailer you can see at the link above.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 06, 2022, 10:35:59 AM
THE FLASH update:
Ezra Miller was on the WB lot shooting pickups one day recently, with WB seemingly going full steam ahead with its plan to release the film early summer 2023.
Read a little about the pickup shoot here: https://www.thewrap.com/ezra-miller-the-flash-reshoots/ (https://www.thewrap.com/ezra-miller-the-flash-reshoots/)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 06, 2022, 10:43:58 AM
And here's a recent article that details how WB's head of DC productions is the "best job in Hollywood no one wants"
https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-discovery-dc-chief-worst-job-zaslav/ (https://www.thewrap.com/warner-bros-discovery-dc-chief-worst-job-zaslav/)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 27, 2022, 08:20:57 AM
Well, if I've s&#^ talked WB for their handling of DC property I've GOT to give them credit when they do something great: no, this is legit inspired!!

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dc-movies-james-gunn-peter-safran-to-lead-film-tv-division-1235248438/ (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dc-movies-james-gunn-peter-safran-to-lead-film-tv-division-1235248438/)

Writer/Director (and sometime actor) James Gunn & producer Peter Safran (AQUAMAN; Gunn's THE SUICIDE SQUAD & Peacemaker; Conjuring series; among others) to Lead Film, TV and Animation Division; they will report directly to WB Discover head David Zaslav and assume the title of co-chairs and co-CEOs of DC Studios.

It had been talked about behind the scenes that Zaslav was looking for a "Kevin Feigi type," someone with creative experience, that could oversee all aspects of the DC film universe, and I'd say they came up with a great duo!  Gunn will oversee the creative side, while Safran will oversee the production side.  Gunn has shown he can expertly play in the comic book genre, not only with the PG-13 rated GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY series, but also the (very) R-rated SUICIDE SQUAD & Peacemaker spinoff (not to mention his non-comic book adaptation movie SUPER, and his VERY Justice League International-esque writing/acting turn with THE SPECIALS).  Gunn also has producing experience, not only with smaller films but he worked quite a bit behind the scenes with Marvel Studios for their phase 3, 'consulting' story and character elements for several films, but he also flat-out Executive Produced INFINITY WAR & ENDGAME!
And Safran is no slouch either, with a very robustly successful resume of films he's produced that have made billions.

This is a great move with VERY proven talent.  Reportedly these two will be the final word when it comes to greenlighting films and shepherding production, which will go a long way with convincing creative talent to come make DC films.  Comic fans should be hyped with the thought that some of those less-mainstream characters may be getting their own big budget film or streaming series now, as well as knowing that characters like Superman will likely get handled with care and hue closer to the comics iteration (Gunn is an avowed comic nerd).

Now, I'm clearly a James Gunn fanboy, so I'm hyped that he's been given a huge responsibility that should work out favorably for everyone: fans, creatives, as well as the studio's finances.  The article states Gunn will still direct and make his own projects during this time (a four year exclusive deal) so fans of his films will still see his own work: he's been working on Season 2 of Peacemaker for awhile now at the very least.  And one thing's for sure, it's gonna be REAL interesting when he's doing press for GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY vol. 3 while also working exclusively for what's now DC Studios.

So while WB has made themselves quite a mess to clean up with their DC movie universe, they've installed leadership that will definitely have a creative vision and bring them the closest to Marvel Studios that, I think, any other competitive studio has been able to get thus far.  I legit now can't wait to see what DC Studios does going forward (THE FLASH and its sequel, as well as the AQUAMAN sequel and BLUE BEETLE films are already done, and THE JOKER sequel falls outside of this arrangement as its not a part of the DC universe and more of an "Elseworlds" storyline)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Michaelnaut on October 27, 2022, 09:41:40 AM
My only, *only* con to this, is that so far, all of JG's properties have been on the humorous side.  It'd be nice to see some range in the DCU, but if it turns into just a bunch of properties being all comedy-focused...I dunno...
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Old Man Grey on October 27, 2022, 05:42:50 PM
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My only, *only* con to this, is that so far, all of JG's properties have been on the humorous side.  It'd be nice to see some range in the DCU, but if it turns into just a bunch of properties being all comedy-focused...I dunno...
You mean like the way the Marvel Universe is trending now.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 28, 2022, 09:59:18 AM
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My only, *only* con to this, is that so far, all of JG's properties have been on the humorous side.  It'd be nice to see some range in the DCU, but if it turns into just a bunch of properties being all comedy-focused...I dunno...
True, but his (albeit relatively limited) comic adaptations vary quite a bit form his non-comic adaptations.  For example, as a writer he wrote the 2004 DAWN OF THE DEAD remake, as well as writing/directing SLITHER & SUPER: while both of those had some comedy in it, the comedy was mostly used to balance the horror (SLITHER) or dark psyche of the main characters (SUPER).  His writing/producing output recently, BRIGHTBURN & BELKO EXPERIMENT, on the other hand, were straight-up genre movies.  BRIGHTBURN was a flat-out horror movie (mixed with superhero/comic undertones in a "what if Superman had a bad mindset and turned evil instead of world-savior), and BELKI was a bit of horror mixed with drama and a tinge of sci-fi.  While BELKO EXPERIMENT has some humor from characters, both of those films are pretty dark/serious: as is SLITHER & SUPER. 

I agree that thematically he does seem to like 1)ensemble movies and 2)characters that are often misfits of some sort.  I do think he's the type that will let creatives have plenty of space to let their own voices shine in their films, while helping behind the scenes to ensure tight story and character developments (as well as, likely, some sort of continuity maybe).  I can get how non-fanboys would want to see a more serious tone with DC mainstays like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. and I suspect that as big of a fan as Gunn is of comics, he will almost certainly maintain the heart and themes of each of the characters he's involved with.

A more interesting thought, is the "Marvel Studios Way" generally maintains similar look, production schedules, sometimes feeling 'formulaic' as far movie storybeats and what not.  I'll be curious to see if Gunn and Safran try to get DC to have a similar "are movies look very similar stylistically" or if they will let the filmmakers have freedom to do whatever.  Gunn has always struck me as an "outside-the-box" type of creative, where he rides a fine line between keeping his voice strong while also not straying from the studio a ton.  It's maybe hard to remember nowadays, but the GotG film felt tonally quite a bit different from the first batch of Marvel films: it still stayed true-to-formula, to an extent, but that ensemble + humor (which fits those characters to a T) was pretty fresh when the first film opened: almost felt like "Joss Whedon character dialog on steroids" maybe to the uninitiated.  Also remember that he was a significant 'influence'/voice on INFINITY WAR & ENDGAME (particularly on the cosmic side of things for those films), and that film definitely felt like a 'Russo Bros film' FAR more than a Gunn film.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 28, 2022, 10:34:08 AM
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You mean like the way the Marvel Universe is trending now.
That is interesting, and I heard from an inside Marvel Studios 'source' part of that tone is in contrast to the 'darker' DCEU movies from the (mostly) Zach Snyder era, as well as JOKER.  Obviously post-Snyder DC films has SHAZAAM! which would feel right-at-home with the lighter Marvel films tonally, as well as AQUAMAN, Wonder Woman sequel, and presumably BLACK ADAM (which I haven't seen yet).  The source also told me that tone also appeals to a broader audience which means more ticket sales.  There's a reason my parents didn't care for any of the Snyder-era DC stuff, but generally really like all of the Marvel stuff, and it's not because they have any care or knowledge of the comic properties.  I agree with few exceptions Marvel Studios seems to like to keep things light and jokey, but juggling tone in a superhero movie where creatives are dealing with a TON of CGI and outlandish story developments, I think the humor helps to balance things out and make situations a little more relatable for the average non-comic nerd moviegoers (remember, these have to appeal to people like my parents and not just cater to the built-in comic fans if they want to make profits and guarantee more films).

I do think Marvel has done a pretty good job of letting great directors' voices shine through in their films: BLACK PANTHER is very much a Ryan Googler film thematically and tonally, and even the Doctor Strange sequel feels 100% like a Sam Raimi movie.  To be a little blunt, I think stronger, more confident directors' voices shine through and add distinction to their films moreso than less-accomplished.  Even ETERNALS directors Chloé Zhao, who had never directed a huge effects-driven film before, had her distinct character ethos - some of the scenic shots have her trademark look too (less so than other directors).  Marvel likes to skew back-and-forth between TV-established directors who can shoot a movie quick, on-budget, and work/trust their production team to get their jobs done, while also hiring stronger film directors like Coogler, Gunn, etc. who get their vision across tonally far more.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 28, 2022, 12:53:03 PM
OK, I'm sounding like James Gunn's publicist, and I apologize if I'm too fanboy-esque here; his writing & directing styles are sooooo my jam and having met him a few times he seems like a great guy (especially nowadays; quite awhile ago he had a very different vibe) and I'm really hyped for him personally to get this awesome gig, as well as as a fan of DC comics to see what he can do to help WB get its act together and make consistently good DC comics films.  I personally think DC was on track post-Snyder and I've generally liked more of their stuff than I've disliked (where as I kind of liked Snyder's output, but when I've tried to revisit those films from MAN OF STEEL through the first SUICIDE SQUAD it's hard for me not to get hung up on those films' myriad of flaws).

Anyway, long story shot (too late, I know), this is a great move for WB and I look forward to the next several years of DC Studios' film development!!
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Michaelnaut on October 28, 2022, 03:22:54 PM
Agree w/all that was said, and who knows, until we start to see real, tangible output from this new relationship.

I do see range on the Marvel side...look at Werewolf by Night, She-Hulk, and then their "normal" properties...while I don't believe that they lean hard one way or another, they do lean in those directions at times.  I think tho the fact that they have multiple properties that run the range help them there.  WB/DC doesn't have that flexibility yet.

WB/DC has nowhere to go except up, so, let's hope that JG & Co. can help right the ship. I will say that I did enjoy Black Adam, and I'll not add to that cause, you know, spoilers, but I do hope that they can really bring more to the table.

Now, as for humorous...if we got James Gunn at the helm of a Blue Devil movie? $#!7, sign me up for that!
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: accelerate on October 28, 2022, 11:15:46 PM
I kinda agree with everything said so far, both the positive and negative.  I’d say I’m a fan of Gunn, but not a fanboy.

There are a bunch of questions I’m dying to know:

1) How much of an impact will he have on already-filmed but not yet releases movies, like Flash & Aquaman 2. Will he be wanting reshoots to have those films fit more in line with his overarching vision?

2) Will there be any kind of reboot or reset? I know Flash is rumored to have such a reset already, but will he try to expand upon it or maybe scale it back?

3) Will he unshelve Batgirl? Or perhaps have it refilmed?

4) Will the non-DCEU films continue (aka Joker & The Batman)?

5) Will he try to poach MCU filmmakers & actors? If GotG3 is indeed the last with this crew, one or more of the characters may be killed off, so…

6) Will he save all the big reveals for Hall H SDCC 2023??
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Michaelnaut on October 29, 2022, 06:50:01 AM
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I kinda agree with everything said so far, both the positive and negative.  I’d say I’m a fan of Gunn, but not a fanboy.

There are a bunch of questions I’m dying to know:

1) How much of an impact will he have on already-filmed but not yet releases movies, like Flash & Aquaman 2. Will he be wanting reshoots to have those films fit more in line with his overarching vision?

2) Will there be any kind of reboot or reset? I know Flash is rumored to have such a reset already, but will he try to expand upon it or maybe scale it back?

3) Will he unshelve Batgirl? Or perhaps have it refilmed?

4) Will the non-DCEU films continue (aka Joker & The Batman)?

5) Will he try to poach MCU filmmakers & actors? If GotG3 is indeed the last with this crew, one or more of the characters may be killed off, so…

6) Will he save all the big reveals for Hall H SDCC 2023??
The last point above by @accelerate (https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4314) really makes me excited (kinda?) for Hall H next year...if they just run w/this and do something to help us all understand how they're going to re-set the stage, all during a Saturday panel? You want kick ass positive coverage, you do that.  That would be awesome.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on October 30, 2022, 01:54:07 PM
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I kinda agree with everything said so far, both the positive and negative.  I’d say I’m a fan of Gunn, but not a fanboy.

There are a bunch of questions I’m dying to know:

1) How much of an impact will he have on already-filmed but not yet releases movies, like Flash & Aquaman 2. Will he be wanting reshoots to have those films fit more in line with his overarching vision?

2) Will there be any kind of reboot or reset? I know Flash is rumored to have such a reset already, but will he try to expand upon it or maybe scale it back?

3) Will he unshelve Batgirl? Or perhaps have it refilmed?

4) Will the non-DCEU films continue (aka Joker & The Batman)?

5) Will he try to poach MCU filmmakers & actors? If GotG3 is indeed the last with this crew, one or more of the characters may be killed off, so…

6) Will he save all the big reveals for Hall H SDCC 2023??
1) I don't think he'll have much/anything to do/say about anything already completed (SHAZAM! sequel, AQUAMAN sequel, Flash movie), though he will potentially have a hand it how they're marketed, maybe edited/reshoots down the stretch for films further at (I'm looking at you, FLASH). It was explicitly stated that the JOKER sequel will NOT fall under DC Studios purview since it's an "Elseworlds" story (and likely has more than enough cache for the creatives behind that one to demand autonomy)
2) will be interesting to find out; with FLASH seemingly opening up the multiverse possibilities they'll likely have freedom to do whatever they think works.  With the Superman cameo in the extra scene of BLACK ADAM, it feels like they're "getting the band back together" to some respect.  I'm legit VERY curious to see what they do myself, since they have a hit in Aquaman, Wonder Woman, a popular Superman actor from the Snyder movies, and now a popular Batman in Pattinson.
3) that may not be his call: that was a WB Discovery decision that (seemingly, depending on whom you listen to/read) was a pure tax type of cash-in/write-off that was part of Discovery's deal of buying WB (they had to find ways to nearly immediately shave several hundred million, if not a billion or so, dollars off of WB's debt)
4) JOKER sequel absolutely: it won Oscars and was fairly acclaimed and like I said, it's more of an unstoppable force at this point with casting already finalized and likely about to go into production.  THE BATMAN was a financial hit for WB and will certainly get its sequel: whether or not that is part of DC Studios (seemed to be) is a slight question, with how it may fit into the overall shared universe a more apt question that I'm curious about
5) I suspect Gunn will recruit any filmmakers/writers/producers/creatives that he thinks will work well with whatever studio system he has in mind.  Marvel Studios has a huge slate of already-announced films in various stages of production and I suspect many of them already of behind-the-scenes creatives attached to many of them.  For example, Destin Daniel Cretton, SHANG-CHI director, is already attached to a SHANG-CHI sequel as well as AVENGERS: KANG DYNASTY
6) I think Gunn knows how to hype his properties in Hall H, and it seems plausible he'll continue to do so provided WB Discovery lets him (ie finances it all).  WB did a fun job with BLACK ADAM in Hall H a few months ago, as did Gunn w/GotG vol 3 so that feels like a good match to me!  I'm excited for the future possibilities

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The last point above by @accelerate (https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4314) really makes me excited (kinda?) for Hall H next year...if they just run w/this and do something to help us all understand how they're going to re-set the stage, all during a Saturday panel? You want kick ass positive coverage, you do that.  That would be awesome.
I totally agree that has their plans solidify it would behoove WB/DC Studios to make a HUGE splash announcing their plans: be it SDCC Hall H or their own FanDome thing, after the last several years they're going to want/need to to something huge to get attention and hype their fans (as well as normal people, like my parents)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on November 06, 2022, 07:45:46 PM
Since I'm apparently updating DC Studios info nowadays, here's a great twitter thread from Studio Head James Gunn (seriously: that is REALLY weird/incredibly cool to type out/say) where he expresses gratitude towards vocal "Ayer Cut of SUICIDE SQUAD" zealots, as well as expressing that
Quote
"...all our initial focus is on the story going forward, hammering out the new DCU, & telling the Biggest Story Ever Told across multiple films, television shows, & animated projects."
That's a pretty bold proclamation, broad as it is at this moment, but something I'd think fans of DC comics should be really excited about.  I know we've heard both studio suits AND creatives talk about grand DC plans before but I have faith in Gunn's vision/ideas moreso than anyone in the past since Christopher Nolan (I was cautiously optimistic with Zach Snyder, as his stuff runs hot or cold with me, and while I neither loved nor hated what he did with the DCEU I _did_ appreciate he went with different ideas, I guess).
https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/1589336397336698880?s=20&t=kCD893PL6xLn5SgARH6NPA (https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/1589336397336698880?s=20&t=kCD893PL6xLn5SgARH6NPA)
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: Michaelnaut on November 07, 2022, 04:47:02 AM
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Since I'm apparently updating DC Studios info nowadays, here's a great twitter thread from Studio Head James Gunn (seriously: that is REALLY weird/incredibly cool to type out/say) where he expresses gratitude towards vocal "Ayer Cut of SUICIDE SQUAD" zealots, as well as expressing that That's a pretty bold proclamation, broad as it is at this moment, but something I'd think fans of DC comics should be really excited about.  I know we've heard both studio suits AND creatives talk about grand DC plans before but I have faith in Gunn's vision/ideas moreso than anyone in the past since Christopher Nolan (I was cautiously optimistic with Zach Snyder, as his stuff runs hot or cold with me, and while I neither loved nor hated what he did with the DCEU I _did_ appreciate he went with different ideas, I guess).
https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/1589336397336698880?s=20&t=kCD893PL6xLn5SgARH6NPA (https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/1589336397336698880?s=20&t=kCD893PL6xLn5SgARH6NPA)
Couple things I pulled out of that:
Quote
...hammering out the new DCU...
This sounds like all things that came before are kinda poof...and almost reads clean-slate to me.  Sure there were some great films (most of the Batman ones) but my first take on this, right or wrong, was that he's got a vision, and it's got nothing to do w/what came prior. Maybe we'll start talking about DC films like Star Wars timeline (BBY/ABY) as BDCU and ADCU :D

Quote
...across multiple films, television shows, & animated projects...
To me, this screams cohesion.  While the movie properties, tv and animation shows were, by design, separate, it'll be nice to see a broader and more cohesive story overall through their "new world".

I really do hope that JG knocks it out of the park...I'm not getting tired of the Marvel stuff, but man, DC needs a win here.  I for one will be at the front of the line when Gunn's stuff starts coming out.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: perc2100 on January 31, 2023, 12:00:33 PM
Now DC Studio heads James Gunn & Peter Safran have released their upcoming slate:
MOVIES
* Superman: Legacy, July 11, 2025 - the only project with a release date announced.  Gunn said they won't set a release date until the script is ready, and if the script is ready he's fine pushing-back a release. 
Quote
“It focuses on Superman balancing his Kryptonian heritage with his human upbringing,”
Safran said.
Quote
“He is the embodiment of truth, justice and the American way. He is kindness in a world that thinks of kindness as old-fashioned.”
  Gunn is writing the project, and Safran said he hopes Gunn
Quote
“can be persuaded, perhaps, to direct it as well.”
* The Authority - Superman: Legacy will lead directly into “The Authority,” an ensemble movie about superhumans who have a less-than-idealistic approach to saving the world; the characters come from Wildstorm
* The Brave and the Bold - this movie introduces the DC continuity Batman, along with the DCMU 'Bat family,' including Damian Wayne/Robin.  Grant Morrison's run was name-dropped: a run that had Damian born via Talia al Ghul _drugging_ Bruce and impregnating herself w/out him knowing.  Gunn eluded to at least a version of that, where Batman didn't know he had a son for the first 10 or so years of Damian's life, by saying "it’s a very strange sort of father-son story about the two of them."  I suspect DC/WB will retcon that...kind of messy origin, though maybe not?
* Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow - as Gunn said,
Quote
“We see the difference between Superman, who was sent to Earth and raised by loving parents from the time he’s an infant, versus Supergirl, who was raised on a rock chip off of Krypton, and watched everyone around her die and be killed in terrible ways for the first 14 years of her life.”
. Gunn name-dropped Tom King here: a comics writer who 1) had a great run with this particular book and 2) was very involved in the DCU writer's room.  Specifically what his contributions may be is unknown at this time, and while I know plenty of comics fans who aren't fans of King, it's undeniable he's had some great books. 
* Swamp Thing - interesting one to me, but I loved the original Wes Craven film and look forward to a modernized version (I never saw the more recent streaming series).  Gunn referenced the initial reactions to the Guardians of the Galaxy joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe and initial questions about how Rocket Raccoon would work standing next to Thor. “That mashup quality” wound up being one of the highlights of “Avengers: Infinity War” and “Avengers: Endgame,” Gunn argued.  “This is a much more horrific film, but we’ll still have Swamp Thing interact with the other characters,” he added.  I personally _LOVED_ the recent Marvel/Disney+ Werewolf By Night, and look forward to Gunn bringing a bit of the horror element to DC!

TV SERIES (not necessarily HBO Max - could be any other streaming service, depending...)
* Creature Commandos - animated, and the first series green-lit.  The Creature Commando characters were first launched in 1980. The premise features Frankenstein’s monster teaming up with a werewolf, a vampire and a gorgon to fight Nazis in World War II. It doesn’t appear that Gunn’s version takes quite the same approach — Weasel, one of the characters from Gunn’s 2021 film “The Suicide Squad,” is one of the Commandos, along with Rick Flag’s father, Rick Flag Sr.  I don't know much about this one, other than googling Weasel when The Suicide Squad dropped a few years ago, but it sounds very interesting.  Superhero animated series can be a BLAST, as the Disney+ "What If" series has shown, as well as the prime "Invincible" series: no budget constraints so sky's the limit as far as what the creators want to do with their corner of the DCU world
* Waller - fascinating to me (though not a bad thing in the least) that Viola Davis' character is 'surviving' the change-over.  BUT, this also means Peacemaker s2 has been put on hold (w/Gunn focused on Superman: Legacy), though 'Team Peacemaker' will be in this series which is awesome!  Both “Creature Commandos” and “Waller” are expected to debut before “Superman: Legacy”; Safran called them the “aperitif” for the DCU.
* Lanterns - Safran and Gunn seemed most excited for “Lanterns,” which Safran described as “a huge HBO-quality event” that is “very much in the vein of ‘True Detective.'” ( :o ).  The show will focus on two of the best known members of the Green Lantern corps: Hal Jordan & John Stewart, who investigate a mystery that Safran said “plays a really big role leading us into the main story that we’re telling across our film and television.”
* Paradise Lost - This “‘Game of Thrones’-ish story,” Safran said, is set on the island of Themyscira before the birth of Diana.  “It’s really about the political intrigue behind a society of all women,” Safran said.
* Booster Gold - In the 25th century, Mike Carter is a disgraced former football star who uses a time machine on display in the Metropolis Space Museum.  Added Gunn, “Basically, ‘Booster Gold’ is imposter syndrome as a superhero.”  Safran called Booster “a loser from the future who uses basic future technology to come back to today and pretend to be a superhero.”  Color me really excited for this one, a legit DC comedy!

Gunn also referenced a 'DC Elseworlds,' which would include a sequel(s) to The Batman, as well as The Joker sequel; he also referenced possibilities of The Flash or Aquaman continuations in the same 'breath' as Elseworlds, so fans of the old Justice League may not be out of luck just yet
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: semigeekgirl on January 31, 2023, 04:04:53 PM
I'm glad they have a plan, but none of this is really exciting to me. But I might just still be bitter that they canned Batgirl and seem to be completely radio silent on Blue Beetle while they promote the extremely questionable Flash movie.
Title: Re: DCEU biggest studio debacle of 21st century?!
Post by: stove19 on February 11, 2023, 05:30:21 PM
I’m interested to see where they take the universe. I like that we’re getting some new storylines and characters. Fingers crossed for a Hall H panel to start diving into the DCEU!