Author Topic: WAKANDA FOREVER (minor spoilers)  (Read 1705 times)

Offline perc2100

  • Volunteer HQ
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2012
  • Posts: 4317
  • Karma: 0
  • Liked: 1770
WAKANDA FOREVER (minor spoilers)
« on: November 10, 2022, 07:57:03 PM »
Where to start: there is A LOT to unpack here!  First, mad credit to co-writer/director Ryan Coogler and Marvel Studios for handling an incredibly difficult tragedy in the most classy way.  To be clear, NO you WILL NOT see CGI Chadwick Boseman interacting with actors, or cut scenes repurposed for a new storyline ala OTHER big Disney-owned franchises(coughTHERISEOFSKYWALKERcough).  Instead the creatives made the wise decision to start the film, pre-title sequence, with T'Challa dying of an undiscussed disease, similar to Boseman's tragic death from colon cancer in 2020 which caused WAKANDA FOREVER to be delayed as Coogler and Marvel had to radically rethink their story.  The Marvel Studios logo scene is presented w/out Michael Giacchino's fanfare, and with the silence the logo is a tribute to Boseman.

And his absence lingers throughout the film, as one would expect.  It would seem that while Coogler was trying to figure out where the film would go w/out his star, he weaved that theme into the film. T'Challa's sister Shuri and his mom Queen Mother Ramonda also struggle with where to go next throughout the course of the film, which takes place one year after T'Challa's death.  Ramonda says The Black Panther died with T'Challa, and seems to be the current ruler of Wakanda while Shuri is mad at herself for being unable to save her brother, mad at the world, etc. while grieving her family and nation's loss. 

The United Nations (or its MCU analogue) pressures Wakanda to share its vibranium fortune, and to be honest who can blame them: the mysteriously powerful metal that is indestructible as well as undetectable only seemingly exists in Wakanda, with the nation's leader previously vowing to be more open with the worlds' community but as since not shared its tech (also, who could blame Wakanda; as Ramonda explains to the UN, she's not worried about what would happen due to the powerful tech, she's worried about what would happen due to humanity's history or issues, not the least of which being the American-trained assassin/Wakanda prince that tried to take over the kingdom in the previous film).

Nonetheless the CIA is actively working on retrieving a vibranium stash they found at the far bottom of the Atlantic, thanks to tech developed by an MIT student, Riri Williams.  Enter Namor, and his underwater people who, like Wakandans, do NOT want humanity to have the tech and wills to pat nothing to ensure they keep the vibranium for themselves under the sea in their kingdom.  Namor's people attack a CIA deep sea mission, killing everyone to keep humanity off of their precious metal, and set out to murder the MIT student who developed the tech to put an end to humanity's quest.  Wakanda also has an interest in keeping others away from the vibranium, and Shuri is rocked to learn of another source, as her culture's stories and myths of the meteor that struck Wakanda are negated.  Shuri and Okoye, head of the Dora Milaje, set off to protect Riri after Namor visits Ramonda and Shuri with the 'proposition'/threat of "deliver the scientist to us or we will come to destroy Wakanda first before destroying all of humanity."

And such sets up the crux of the film.  Shuri has the ultimate struggle between being the noble leader like her brother, or "damn the world/Namor's people" like her cousin Killmonger was as King.  Of course, the film is a not-that-subtle rumination of driving and loss, and how one picks up the pieces after a devastating tragedy.  Coogler and Marvel use Boseman's death as an allegory, and do it in a really wonderful way.  And with the Wakandans being an African nation, and Namor's people being from the mythical Aztec 'paradise' (in Aztec legend, that's what Tlālōcān is, though repurposed here slightly as the name of Namor's underwater 'paradise'), there are also heavy undertones of imperialism throughout the film (and not even subtext: Namor's "origin story" is flat-out about slavery of his people at the hands of European colonists that led not only to his people's tragedy, but also his disdain for humanity in general).  Believe it or not, this is a MUCH heavier film that the original BLACK PANTHER thematically: both the obvious dealing with T'Challa's death, and the maybe not-thought-of going in themes of imperialism.

I expect this film will have mixed reviews because of it.  The first film was heavy but tonally rode that great line with bouncy, light "fun."  There are no fun sequences such as the casino fight in the first film; in fact, I think there are maybe significantly few action sequences in WAKANDA FOREVER than most Marvel films.  Coogler had A LOT to deal with via this film, and I don't begrudge that.  I personally really appreciated his themes, and I really like the film.  Boseman/T'Challa not being around anymore gives the core ladies of Wakanda their time to shine, and this film is ALL about strong females running the show: even M'Baku, who challenged T'Challa's authority in the first film and took a bit of of coercing to come around to his side, generally cedes Wakanda's power to Ramonda & Shuri.  Riri, the brilliant MIT student (with strong Tony Stark minus the money & snark undertones, right down to suiting up in an Ironheart suit & her love of old fashioned sports cars) is another strong female in the mix, albeit one who is often standing around listening to the leads discus story points.  And while CIA Agent Ross is back for a bit of the action, even his boss is
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
. I'd Namor is really the ONLY strong male character in the film.
And I really enjoyed seeing these amazing ladies act!  They're all great at their craft, though IMO Danai Gurira is a bit outclassed by her costars (and, really, that's no fault of her own: she's up against HEAVY actresses who are flat-out great most of the time!).

For me Namor and his backstory and people worked well.  I've never been a huge Namor comics fan, and while I often appreciate his snarky attitude as amusing, he mostly exists in the comics in my head to get his comeuppance.  IMO Marvel Studios has done a TREMENDOUS job of creating a character that honors Aztec mythology and history, and gives an awesome Mexican actor an opportunity to star.  He's a real highlight for me, and it's hard not to be empathetic of his plight.  I honestly think Marvel couldn't have handled Namor better than what we do here, and I REALLY glad
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


The production design is just as great as in the original, though not as "flashy."  The costumes are all gorgeous, and the sets are wonderful.  Obviously with Namor and his people as the protagonists there are a LOT of water scenes, and they all look great: really wonderful visual FX for the most part.  I'm still blown away that Marvel leaned in HARD with Namor having wings on his feet!  There is a great fight sequence that features
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
. The fight scenes are sparse, but well handled for the most part, and when Shuri
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


And the score is to die for!  Ludwig Göransson, Coogler's former college roommate who's scored all of his films totally outdid he Oscar-winning BLACK PANTHER score!  His cues for Namor's people are creepy at times, very ethereal, and his African Wakanda themes are as exciting and interesting as the original.  This is one of my favorite MCU scores to date, and I can't wait to deep-dive listen to it over the next week or two.  His use of different drums and other instruments colors are superb, and he's quickly become a favorite composer; it's exciting to see him really let loose with different instrumentation, and the seemingly rare times he uses convention orchestral instrumental score it's _almost_ jarring to me (but makes those rare times, always coming at very dramatic moments, stand out that much more).

This is a really good film: probably my favorite of Marvel's Phase 4.  It's not as easy to digest as the crowd friendly NO WAY HOME, but I like its dense themes and somber tone.  I don't know what the future holds for this franchise (though 1) there is a HUGE reveal in a mid-credits scene and 2) the card after the credit promises us "Black Panther Will Return"), or if Coogler will return for one more film (I'd be 100% understanding if he's emotionally drained after this one, dealing with not only filming during the worst of the COVID shutdown but also having to hard pivot after the death of his star and friend) but I'm appreciative of the films we have and am intrigued to see where Shuri and her compatriots go forward

Offline lliving

  • Gaming Lounge
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 301
  • Karma: 0
  • Liked: 173
Re: WAKANDA FOREVER (minor spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2022, 08:18:18 AM »
I wonder if Kang will play a role in what happens time wise with the mid credits reveal.  Is it time to speculate on whom might fit into that role going forward? (Being vague on purpose)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Friends of Comic Cons

  • Guest
Re: WAKANDA FOREVER (minor spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: Today at 09:39:22 AM »

Offline perc2100

  • Volunteer HQ
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2012
  • Posts: 4317
  • Karma: 0
  • Liked: 1770
Re: WAKANDA FOREVER (minor spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2022, 09:26:52 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wonder if Kang will play a role in what happens time wise with the mid credits reveal.  Is it time to speculate on whom might fit into that role going forward? (Being vague on purpose)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Between Kang being the 'big bad' of the next couple phases, AND the multiverse opened up to a myriad of scenarios, we are firmly in "WTF is going to happen now? It's anyone's guess" mode with the MCU, I think.  They can bring back anyone killed, they can bring in 'alternate universe' anyone: it can go as nutty as Marvel Studios wants to go!

The nutty thing about comics are they're just soap operas for a different audience; in the comics
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Offline perc2100

  • Volunteer HQ
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2012
  • Posts: 4317
  • Karma: 0
  • Liked: 1770
Re: WAKANDA FOREVER (spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2022, 09:31:53 AM »
SPOILER DISCUSSION HERE
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
(turn back if you want nothing spoiled)

So, let's talk about a few things here:
* how awesome is Namor: and props to Coogler for crafting two of the better MCU villains with Killmonger & Namor.  I can't tell you how happy I was that Namor lived to fight another day, and I love that we leave the movie having to legit consider if Namor is indeed a bad guy or just "complicated."  His relationship with Wakanda will forever be linked not only with vibranium, but also their shared interest of not wanting the rest of the world to go mad w/power with the tech. Obvs Namor's actions make him a bad guy inherently (wanting to murder a scientist essentially just because she's smart; murdering all of those scientists & soldiers at the deep sea site, etc) but Coogler and his crew did a great job of painting him in a way that he _could_ be good or problematic for our heroes depending on the situation.  Just as he typically is in the comics!
* I also love Shuri's arc. When she came out w/her Black Panther costume and it mirrored Killmonger's look rather than her brothers, how jarring was that?!  Making her also a multi-dimensional character here was a great choice, and she feels _SO_ different in this film than she does in the original BLACK PANTHER (which I revisited Saturday).  Between the two films (plus her appearances in INFINITY WAR and ENDGAME), she is goes from a bouncy, intelligent uber-positive person to a much darker/angrier personality type.  Which is EXACTLY what you'd expect with someone dealing with grief.  I was curious how Marvel would handle character arcs in this film, and I think they did a great job not only exploring the complications that grieving brings into peoples' lives, but also how different people grieve in different ways.  Ramonda, by contrast, was more stoic after losing her son, shortly after losing her husband (maybe after her husband died she was able to cope with T'Challa's death easier).  Shuri feeling like she personally failed her brother adds to her grief.
* WAKANDA FOREVER as wholesale grieving was such a great thematic choice.  I adore and empathize that Coogler and his crew really _WENT FOR IT_ with this film, deciding "hell, we're all massively shook up and grieving the actor's death, OF COURSE the characters would be doing the same so lets lean into that hard!"  It's a brave choice, and I can now understand why they were even more emotional at SDCC after the sizzle reel screened for Hall H: I suspect even making the film was pretty hard as well, with how much T'Challa's death weighs heavily over the story.  They were constantly reminded of Boseman's death due to T'Challa's death in the film: they had to constantly go into long work days and not only miss their star/friend on a 'basic' level, but be constantly reminded of his death due to the story of the film.
* and the grieving was handled expertly/accurately.  I've taken courses on grieving on both HS and college, and while I'm no expert I know enough to know that WAKANDA FOREVER felt incredibly accurate, and all of the major players handled their grieving differently: just as real life humans do.  Shuri handled it very hard, hovering mostly in the "anger" phase, blaming her self.  Romanda was more stoic, putting on her Queen Mother personality for the nation to go forward, while bottling her grieving of her son's death (which came out very sharply when chewing out Okoye for not better protecting her family).  Nakia seemed to channel her emotions into her son, albeit almost all of that was off-camera until the mid-credits scene.  M'Baku seemed to be most into "acceptance" stage of grieving, being the 'relief' for those closest to T'Challa.  Actor Winston Duke himself said "The intention for Mbaku in this film is to serve as the vent for a pressure cooker..." which is 100% how I handle these types of situations (the "makes jokes and inopportune times" guy).
* it can't be said enough how awesome this film is to be centered on strong, smart, awesome women of color and how they handle grieving + stresses of governing in a 'new world.' The most formidable male in the film is Namor, and even M'Baku is a lot or amiable to the ladies' authority than he was in BLACK PANTHER.  It was refreshing to see a film like this that didn't necessarily feel like a "girl power" type of film: that theme just happened organically, and I appreciate Marvel Studios & Coogler not trying to soften the ladies' roles thematically in order to shoe-horn a strong male hero into the mix.  Remember when the main villain for IRON MAN THREE was supposed to be Maya Hansen but Disney didn't think a girl would sell enough merchandize?  We've come a long way in (almost) a decade!
* Tenoch Huerta is a legit star!  He has charisma, gives audience feelings of empathy, can be soft/warm one moment and viciously cold/fierce the next.  I don't know what he'll do next, but I'm 100% here for him.  He took a character that IMO is inherently silly and makes him somehow feel like a real person to both fear and understand!  I mean, he 100% sold "sea guy who has little wings on his ankles" as a legit great character!!
* What's next for this series/these characters?  Marvel says "Blank Panther will return," but in what way?  Avengers/other crossover properties; a third film?  I legit wonder what comes next for this royal family, and the mid-credits reveal of T'Challa's son/heir to the thrown leaves things WIDE open narratively (if not throws a wrench into the story)

What do you guys think?