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Comic-Con International => SDCC Registration and Badges => Topic started by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 05:27:35 PM

Title: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 05:27:35 PM
I wanted to comment in the post, but apparently the entire 'CCI Posts and Announcements' forum is locked.

Kvthai posted a comment from CCI on their Facebook page about how they couldn't add more days to the Con because it was be more expensive to have security, fire marshalls. rent the space, etc. This does not make sense to me at all. Yes, there would be more costs, but those costs should be offset by the increased price of badges (if such badges were to cover the entire event) and/or an increase in the number of badges sold. I'm not sure why CCI is automatically nixing this idea on the theory that it would 'cost too much'?????

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 24, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
Had to lock the thread just to keep it organized in there but feel free to discuss it here. :D

I think CCI alluded to the costs even on days they are not holding events so that they can reserve the area. Otherwise they'd have to set up, take it down and then repeat the whole process again the following week.

On the other side of it, think of the costs for exhibitors. The major studios will be fine but mom and pop comic book stores? They'll struggle to basically shut down for 2 weeks in order to set up shop. Sure, they could just choose 1 week and other vendors can step in but then you start to run into problems of not offering the same experience both weeks.

Then you start to look at the panels. Would the programming be the exact same both weeks?  Would studios be able to bring the cast, et al? If the programming varies, then you'll just have people buying badges for both weeks and create the same demand.

And lastly, look at it from the costs for attendees. Hotel prices are expensive enough as is. Extending it longer would put a total strain and take away from the con experience.

I think people look at Coachella breaking up into 2 weeks and assume Comic Con could do the same but I think the logistics of it and just the nature of the 2 events are so different that it's not something that you can just say, okay, let's do it and it'll resolve all the issues. It sounds like it'd create even more issues in my opinion...
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 05:55:12 PM
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I think CCI alluded to the costs even on days they are not holding events so that they can reserve the area. Otherwise they'd have to set up, take it down and then repeat the whole process again the following week.

I agree, those are unnecessary costs. Just extend the Con, perhaps to an entire week (6 days plus Preview Night).

Quote
On the other side of it, think of the costs for exhibitors. The major studios will be fine but mom and pop comic book stores? They'll struggle to basically shut down for 2 weeks in order to set up shop. Sure, they could just choose 1 week and other vendors can step in but then you start to run into problems of not offering the same experience both weeks.

They don't have to double to 2 weeks immediately. Adding a day or two before the 'traditional start' or 'traditional end' would likely help. Sure the Mom& Pop vendors would be away from their main businesses longer, but by doing so they would open themselves up to more Con sales. Clearly if it's not in their financial interest they won't do so, but I'm betting for many of them an extra day or two (quite possibly with 'new' attendees) would up their sales enough to make it worthwhile.

Quote
Then you start to look at the panels. Would the programming be the exact same both weeks?  Would studios be able to bring the cast, et al? If the programming varies, then you'll just have people buying badges for both weeks and create the same demand.

I wouldn't expect there to be any repeats in the panels. It would be the same 'black void until the programming schedule is announced' that it is today. Yes, some people would want to come for all 6/7 days. I'd be one of them! But other people wouldn't be able to get extra days off of work, or want to pay the increased cost that would come about for having more days. Additionally, there would be more single day badges available.

Quote
And lastly, look at it from the costs for attendees. Hotel prices are expensive enough as is. Extending it longer would put a total strain and take away from the con experience.

EXACTLY. Higher costs for the attendees encourage a shorter/partial Con trip, which opens up more spots for other people.

Quote
It sounds like it'd create even more issues in my opinion...

It probably would. But extending the Con, even by a couple of days, would definitely accommodate more attendees, which is the whole point.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 24, 2012, 06:02:27 PM
the Information Archive area is locked because it is a a repository of information so that people can find and reference historical information easily. There are plenty of other areas for discussions
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 24, 2012, 06:03:11 PM
I say move preview night to Tuesday or get rid of it all together and make wednesday a full day. I know vendors will be losing 24 hours to set up but if properly those booths can go up pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 06:04:14 PM
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I say move preview night to Tuesday or get rid of it all together and make wednesday a full day. I know vendors will be losing 24 hours to set up but if properly those booths can go up pretty quickly.

That's certainly a step in the right direction!
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Zero on May 24, 2012, 06:04:27 PM
While there is some potential interest in holding a longer convention, there's also the aspect of getting enough volunteers and staff members to be there full-time to maintain programming (the panels, for example), exhibitors, press, professionals, attendees, special guests, and so forth.  With so many variables to holding a four- to five-day convention as it is and coming from a staffing perspective from other conventions myself, it would take not only a lot of human resources but also financial backing to maintain everything in working order.  Unfortunately, it's not so simple as extending Comic-Con a few more days.  There is a lot of behind-the-scenes activity that we as fans and attendees are not aware of in order for the convention to be up and running as well as it does right now.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 06:05:57 PM
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There is a lot of behind-the-scenes activity that we as fans and attendees are not aware of in order for the convention to be up and running as well as it does right now.

Fair enough. I would expect an increase in badge prices/number of badges sold to compensate for these additional difficulties.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 24, 2012, 06:12:23 PM
Sometimes less is more.

Quality over quantity.

<insert cliche>

But I do like the idea of Preview Night being extended though I also like the semi-exclusive feel to it.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 24, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
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But I do like the idea of Preview Night being extended though I also like the semi-exclusive feel to it.

I don't think the idea floated was for Preview Night to be extended, but rather for Preview Night to be moved to Tuesday, making Wednesday a proper, full day.

I also like the 'exclusive' feel to Preview Night... or I would, if it weren't so darn crowded! ;)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Zero on May 24, 2012, 06:16:12 PM
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Fair enough. I would expect an increase in badge prices/number of badges sold to compensate for these additional difficulties.

It's not just about badge sales to compensate for monetary needs.  It's more about manpower to run the convention.  Would they even potentially be available for that extended time period?  Honestly, I would be dead tired after four/five days as a convention staffer--imagine a full week with little rest and high levels of stress to make sure everything is going smoothly and putting out any "fires" they might come across.  It's one thing to be an attendee; it's another to be helping out with running the convention.

I do, however, understand both sides.  It's a rather difficult dilemma either way.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 25, 2012, 05:12:58 AM
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It's not just about badge sales to compensate for monetary needs.  It's more about manpower to run the convention.  Would they even potentially be available for that extended time period? <snip>

well, i think it's safe to say the hourly employees would be at time and a half after 4-5 days so to add an extra day wouldn't cost the same amt but more by a factor of 1/2
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 25, 2012, 07:03:39 AM
It might be really cool if they moved to a staggered model like SXSW. The way it runs is that there is a day or two of overlap in content but the 3 topics run on different tracks. So you end up with something like:

(https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1135.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm631%2Ftapearso%2FsxswSample.jpg&hash=843c6c5c7bf8fdf76a119d81b4ce44001ecc83f9)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 25, 2012, 09:26:06 AM
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It might be really cool if they moved to a staggered model like SXSW. The way it runs is that there is a day or two of overlap in content but the 3 topics run on different tracks. So you end up with something like:

(https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1135.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm631%2Ftapearso%2FsxswSample.jpg&hash=843c6c5c7bf8fdf76a119d81b4ce44001ecc83f9)

That's interesting... I wonder if the studios would be willing to agree to that?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 25, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
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That's interesting... I wonder if the studios would be willing to agree to that?

The music industry does for south by. I think All in SXSW is probably bigger than SDCC and this has worked well as that con evolved. It is *very* similar. Industry + public, tons of hype, different major tracks.

As someone who's been to both cons multiple times, I can't believe I never identified the difference in pattern before. If CCI pushed the con to 8 days and did a different setup for the exhibit hall, it could work very well. Start the comics on the current schedule and then stagger in hollywood on Sat and run it to the following Wed. or vice versa.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 25, 2012, 10:42:52 AM
Its an interesting approach. Why don't you propose this to CCI? (send email, letter, etc.)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Kevin Rutan on May 25, 2012, 10:53:40 AM
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It might be really cool if they moved to a staggered model like SXSW. The way it runs is that there is a day or two of overlap in content but the 3 topics run on different tracks. So you end up with something like:

(https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1135.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm631%2Ftapearso%2FsxswSample.jpg&hash=843c6c5c7bf8fdf76a119d81b4ce44001ecc83f9)
I imagine that kind of system would work pretty well with the panels, but I'm not so sure that long of a timeframe would work for all of the exhibitors. A lot of the publishers might have trouble keeping booths there that long and you wouldn't be able to cycle booths without downtime.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 25, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
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I imagine that kind of system would work pretty well with the panels, but I'm not so sure that long of a timeframe would work for all of the exhibitors. A lot of the publishers might have trouble keeping booths there that long and you wouldn't be able to cycle booths without downtime.

The point is that the booths are only open for the period. Not that everything is available all the time. SXSW does this by essentially leveraging the entire town, but our convention center is tiny compared to San Diego. To re-iterate, it would mean a different layout to San Diego.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on May 25, 2012, 08:09:19 PM
Quote
I wouldn't expect there to be any repeats in the panels. It would be the same 'black void until the programming schedule is announced' that it is today. Yes, some people would want to come for all 6/7 days. I'd be one of them! But other people wouldn't be able to get extra days off of work, or want to pay the increased cost that would come about for having more days. Additionally, there would be more single day badges available.

Here is the bigger issue with this.  Pissing off your core fan base.  Panels are not announced until two weeks before SDCC which its not a big deal to the full experience attendees.  With your plan tho you seem to be expecting (rightfully so for most) people to not be able to get that much time off and would thus miss out on even more panels because they did not know when their favorite panels would be happening.  Now if the staggered set up like was suggested above is adopted this plan might work but this is dependent on CCI making MASSIVE changes suddenly.  We all know CCI does not make majors moves like this often or together. Hell look at the flack they got just for having CCI member IDs.

Other issues are the surprisingly common misconception that SDCC is done and set up early in the week and is just waiting for the opening day.  Even without insider knowledge anyone that has been to Preview Night knows the booths are not all done. Missing signing, merchandise, or even fixturing is not uncommon just with small booths but large ones as well. Take down works just the same.  The reason they have to close at 5pm is because they have to be able to turn the convention center back over so the next group can start their build.  If you are not done by midnight taking down your booth the Freemen come in and do it for you, at outrageous prices.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Zero on May 25, 2012, 08:41:39 PM
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Other issues are the surprisingly common misconception that SDCC is done and set up early in the week and is just waiting for the opening day.  Even without insider knowledge anyone that has been to Preview Night knows the booths are not all done. Missing signing, merchandise, or even fixturing is not uncommon just with small booths but large ones as well. Take down works just the same.  The reason they have to close at 5pm is because they have to be able to turn the convention center back over so the next group can start their build.  If you are not done by midnight taking down your booth the Freemen come in and do it for you, at outrageous prices.

It's actually the same with other conventions--setting up the convention center usually happens a day before the start of that particular convention.  Not only does the main Exhibit Hall area need to be set up, the programming and video rooms (think of the number of chairs, the layout of those chairs, and any special video camera needs to broadcast the panels on the adjacent screens in the front) need to be prepared as well.  Signs have to be placed in the correct locations.  The appropriate staff members need to set up their computers, printers, and other IT hardware in special operations offices.  There are so many logistical aspects of putting on something as large as Comic-Con that it's not as simple as increasing the amount of days it runs.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 26, 2012, 08:29:53 AM
Except.... the setup you describe has to happen, regardless of how many days re in between setup and breakdown. I'm still not seeing why they couldn't just start setup 2 days earlier, have the con run 2 days longer, then tear down on the same day.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 26, 2012, 09:22:32 AM
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Except.... the setup you describe has to happen, regardless of how many days re in between setup and breakdown. I'm still not seeing why they couldn't just start setup 2 days earlier, have the con run 2 days longer, then tear down on the same day.

I don't get it. What problem does that solve? It just commits vendors to more time there.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 26, 2012, 11:15:25 AM
people think more days will equal more tickets... when in reality the only effect will be to spread the panels out over 6 days instead of 4.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 26, 2012, 12:46:49 PM
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people think more days will equal more tickets... when in reality the only effect will be to spread the panels out over 6 days instead of 4.

I think there's almost no way this results in substantially more tickets. It really is 2 different conventions now that happen at the same time -- they should treat it that way. Or jettison the comics portion to a different set of dates on the calendar.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 26, 2012, 01:02:38 PM
You mean like WonderCon?  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 26, 2012, 01:22:31 PM
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You mean like WonderCon?  ;)

Yes, but in San Diego. Same size as the comics portion of the show today. That's still a lot bigger than Wonder Con.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 26, 2012, 04:11:46 PM
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people think more days will equal more tickets... when in reality the only effect will be to spread the panels out over 6 days instead of 4.

At a minimum, more days = more single day badges. Additionally, more days means more people who cannot attend the whole thing, so the number of 'con-long' attendees should drop, allowing new people to take their places.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 26, 2012, 06:46:18 PM
I disagree, I don't think the actual number of week long badge holders will go down due to more days.  Personally, i'd still buy the entire number of days to insure i'd get to see the panels I want, regardless of the actual time i spent at the con.  If there's nothing I want to see at the con, i'll do something outside of the con.

CCI is so popular *because* everything is happening at once, if you try and peal something off, it loses the cashe.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 27, 2012, 08:38:50 AM
LOL, earlier in this thread other people were arguing above that if the COn wer longer it would get to be too expensive/more time off for some people!

I think it's fair to say that if the Con were extended to 6 days plus pPreview Night, there would be many people who are currently 4/5 day attendees who would continue to go to the whole thing. Those people include you and me, Alyssa.

But I think it's also fair to say that there are others for whom the financial burden/time off issue would cause them not to attend the entire thing.

As to what those proportions are...? I don't know.
Title: Re: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 27, 2012, 09:49:17 AM
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LOL, earlier in this thread other people were arguing above that if the COn wer longer it would get to be too expensive/more time off for some people!

But I think it's also fair to say that there are others for whom the financial burden/time off issue would cause them not to attend the entire thing.

As to what those proportions are...? I don't know.
What you don't seem to be getting, is that what makes sdcc so good is the intensity and over saturation. When you spread it out, dilute it to last a week so to speak, the show ecomes less of a 'must see' and more of a 'if I'm in town' thing.

In addition one of the most asked question on the fb comic con board is 'how can I buy only a one day badge if I don't know which day my show is on. This would compound that problem. You may think cci could get all the TV shows to book into a 3 day window, but if the show knows there's a full week, they'll book the panel when they want not when cci wants it.

I'm not a big fan of arguing by analogy but think of a sm hip restaurant that moves to a bigger space and is closed within the year.


Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 27, 2012, 09:58:02 AM
It's funny that you use the restaurant analogy b/c I was thinking the same thing. I miss the mom and pop BBQ joint we had here that moved from a 2 table hole in the wall to a bigger building and failed within a few months. The recipe was award winning but it couldn't handle the additional costs from rent to servers that the bigger space required.  We have a few bakeries around here that I think intentionally keep the lines long to give the illusion that demand is high.

As I've said, sometimes less is more. It's clearly not a money thing for CCI but a way to put on a show that everyone there can enjoy. Once you start running everyone ragged, it becomes less of a celebration and party and more of a chore to hold the event.

If anything, I like in the Glanzer interview after WonderCon (I believe that's where I heard it) where he alludes to possibly another event so WonderCon can return up north to SF and another CCI organized con can be held in Anaheim which will tide fans over until Comic Con in July but still give fans another event that they can enjoy on a smaller, more relaxed scale.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 27, 2012, 10:01:30 AM
I predict we'll see the con bubble pop within a few years. I am surprised it blew up to the levels it did given the recession but many of the larger production companies have not been getting the returns they were hoping for after going HAM on the con advertising.

Right now they are at that sweet spot where they have the demand, but what if they do extend the days just to have that be the breaking point where people & companies get con fatigue or just flat out do not want to pay more? That's an expensive experiment that they would be gambling on.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 27, 2012, 10:05:48 AM
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If anything, I like in the Glanzer interview after WonderCon (I believe that's where I heard it) where he alludes to possibly another event so WonderCon can return up north to SF and another CCI organized con can be held in Anaheim which will tide fans over until Comic Con in July but still give fans another event that they can enjoy on a smaller, more relaxed scale.

I would love to see them branch out of
Cali and enter larger territories that are equipped for large expos but other comic cons are not in, like Vegas, Atlantic City, or Miami.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 27, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
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I predict we'll see the con bubble pop within a few years. I am surprised it blew up to the levels it did given the recession but many of the larger production companies have not been getting the returns they were hoping for after going HAM on the con advertising.

Right now they are at that sweet spot where they have the demand, but what if they do extend the days just to have that be the breaking point where people & companies get con fatigue or just flat out do not want to pay more? That's an expensive experiment that they would be gambling on.
agreed, i saw it happen to rock climbing- people couldn't get enough then all of a sudden, bam, all the demand dried up. Popularity is a fickle thing.

my little local comic shop in portland ME is trying to fund it's next con by setting up a Kickstarter page to get the 10K they need to hold the show - it's brilliant and it get's them out from having the huge cash outlay upfront. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/382061767/coast-city-comicon
Title: Re: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 27, 2012, 01:32:23 PM
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What you don't seem to be getting, is that what makes sdcc so good is the intensity and over saturation.

That's an argument I haven't heard before. IMHO, the show could use a *little* dilution. There's so much to see and I always have to make hard choices...
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 27, 2012, 01:34:14 PM
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Right now they are at that sweet spot where they have the demand, but what if they do extend the days just to have that be the breaking point where people & companies get con fatigue or just flat out do not want to pay more? That's an expensive experiment that they would be gambling on.

Interesting. Others on this thread have commented that the demand will not go away without significant price increases.

Just curious, Mario, why do you think companies will 'get fatigue'?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 27, 2012, 02:07:52 PM
Please excuse how long this is. Again, this is just my opinion based on facts and past reactions in the industry.

I think that the big film companies will get fatigue for many reasons and all of them are financial. Dont get me wrong, I love this event as much as the next guy who can get in and I want to see it go on forever but the business end is just not that good long term for film companies who have banked so much on a con appearance translating to box office success. Those days, I'm afraid, are over.

If I know hollywood like I think i do, then there are a team of people for each studio who have looked at what they have in thier line-ups and decided months ago how much money they want to put into this years con if any at all. They are starting to realize that the fans at the con are a very small sampling of their target demo and no matter how much hype they feel they see, these multi-million dollar films with ad budgets that are just as big have had a hard time recouping the loss.

In my opinion it seems like the lesser known outrageous movies like piraña 3d have been the ones to leave the con with real buzz. But if the really big movies and celebs stop going then that could bring down the interest of the mundane fans who only wanted to go because they knew they could see Robert patinson or whoever.

That's Hollywood, several of the toy companies have on average found thier stock of exclusives not selling as well year after year. Extra inventory and declining sales could lead to them scaling back the offerings for the next year or even pushing the same exclusive at several shows as a generic "convention" exclusive then eventually the remaining stock will be hocked on a retail site (like dc direct).

Then there are the fans. Yes, there is a large collection of con goers who do this year after year. This'll be my fourth year and I can tell you that unlike being a gay teen this does not get better. It actually gets more frustrating and exponentially expensive. My first year cost I think 1800 total. This year that's just how much my hotel costs. Do I need to stay in gaslamp? No, but having been a vet of this thing I know I want to be where the action is. I project that when August rolls around I wouldve spent $12000 on four sdcc's for two people. I am by no means hurting because of this nor am I regretful, I knew what I am spending my money on, and all of that money is without a dime being spent on two passes to even get into this thing in two years. The average late teen through college kid wouldn't be able to ball like this year after year and they could struggle financially with a trip that you need to plan eons ahead of time to attend.

And finally, there are the people who work these things and they all need to get paid. Volunteers blanketing the streets with flyers, pr people being flown in to rep their clients, extra security, sanitation, chefs, transportation, prostitutes (they are there if money is to be made) all of these people are coming in lager numbers year after year but if there is a cap on how many people can actually get in then that will taper off since it could be over saturated with opportunists who are just a bit too late.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on May 27, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
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That's an argument I haven't heard before. IMHO, the show could use a *little* dilution. There's so much to see and I always have to make hard choices...
i've found that dilution leads to 'not much i want to see...' pretty quick.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 27, 2012, 09:37:25 PM
Mario, you've raised some interesting points. I don't have enough knowledge/experience with this industry to respond with anything appropriately intelligent. I appreciate your thoughts and am interested to see how things work out, and whether or not your predictions are true.

You're right that the average college student can't necessarily afford the outlay involved, but presumably as they graduate and get a job they would be more able to do so.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 28, 2012, 04:52:08 AM
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Mario, you've raised some interesting points. I don't have enough knowledge/experience with this industry to respond with anything appropriately intelligent. I appreciate your thoughts and am interested to see how things work out, and whether or not your predictions are true.

You're right that the average college student can't necessarily afford the outlay involved, but presumably as they graduate and get a job they would be more able to do so.

If you're thinking that Hollywood might pull out or reduce, just repeat to yourself - Avengers is over $1.2b in box office alone. It cost $220m to make and maybe $300m to make and market. That's almost $1b in profit and it is still in theaters.

Hollywood will now ride it as far as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't double down on sdcc.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 28, 2012, 08:23:50 AM
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Hollywood will now ride it as far as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't double down on sdcc.

Interesting thing with that point is how quickly Hollywood will blame SDCC as soon as a movie fails. And that will happen with more movies than not.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 28, 2012, 09:10:59 AM
When stuff fails, the people responsible are always looking for a scapegoat. It couldn't be because the movie sucked, could it? ;)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 28, 2012, 11:52:47 AM
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Interesting thing with that point is how quickly Hollywood will blame SDCC as soon as a movie fails. And that will happen with more movies than not.

I don't think so. They might blame the marketing plan, and that might include SDCC, but I doubt anybody would blame SDCC completely. If the movie sucks and word gets out via SDCC, well that's a gamble they took with a movie that sucked anyway.

There was a good analysis on the Beat a year or two ago, I'll see if I can find it.

Hollywood blaming SDCC for a bunch of failures would actually be OK with me, bec. it might mean they would pull out or pull back.

There's enough capital floating around Hollywood thanks to superhero movies that SDCC is a pretty big bargain. Even if they spent a million or two on SDCC -- which seems crazy high to me, they could do SDCC for the next 10 or 20 years and not make much of a dent.

Small films will probably always do Guerilla marketing at SDCC. Big Studios have enough coin to do it right until the trend is run into the ground. That's what Hollywood does anyway.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 28, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
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I don't think so. They might blame the marketing plan, and that might include SDCC, but I doubt anybody would blame SDCC completely. If the movie sucks and word gets out via SDCC, well that's a gamble they took with a movie that sucked anyway.

There was a good analysis on the Beat a year or two ago, I'll see if I can find it.

Hollywood blaming SDCC for a bunch of failures would actually be OK with me, bec. it might mean they would pull out or pull back.

There's enough capital floating around Hollywood thanks to superhero movies that SDCC is a pretty big bargain. Even if they spent a million or two on SDCC -- which seems crazy high to me, they could do SDCC for the next 10 or 20 years and not make much of a dent.

Small films will probably always do Guerilla marketing at SDCC. Big Studios have enough coin to do it right until the trend is run into the ground. That's what Hollywood does anyway.

Here's the article I was referring to:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/06/13/are-movie-studios-finally-over-comic-con/
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Angology on May 28, 2012, 02:44:56 PM
It so breaks my heart that Scott Pilgrim is the big example, and a failure, and that therefore it must have sucked. It was my favorite movie that year, and on my top ten list of all time. I truly believe that it just had a limited appeal, and no amount of marketing would have expanded it. I cherish every piece of SP swag I got that year.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 29, 2012, 07:17:57 AM
I thought Snakes on a Plane was the big example of a movie that went over well at the Con but tanked?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 29, 2012, 08:05:42 AM
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I thought Snakes on a Plane was the big example of a movie that went over well at the Con but tanked?

The hype on that movie was so beyond even what it was at SDCC that I don't think you could blame SDCC alone. When it came out, the president of our company gave the entire engineering org the afternoon off and we went as a team to see it at the Alamo Drafthouse with an open bar.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Kevin Rutan on May 29, 2012, 08:27:20 AM
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If you're thinking that Hollywood might pull out or reduce, just repeat to yourself - Avengers is over $1.2b in box office alone. It cost $220m to make and maybe $300m to make and market. That's almost $1b in profit and it is still in theaters.

Hollywood will now ride it as far as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't double down on sdcc.
Trev, your logic here is a little specious seeing as Avengers did not have a major presense at SDCC. Considering that they had no panel there you might think the argument could be made that a quality movie like Avengers will make money with or without a con  appearance. If studios don't see a real financial benefit to the con, they have no incentive to spend their money or time on it.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 29, 2012, 09:23:16 AM
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Trev, your logic here is a little specious seeing as Avengers did not have a major presense at SDCC. Considering that they had no panel there you might think the argument could be made that a quality movie like Avengers will make money with or without a con  appearance. If studios don't see a real financial benefit to the con, they have no incentive to spend their money or time on it.

Clearly that was the bet. Though Marvel did pimp The Avengers last year pretty heavily even though there wasn't a formal panel.

The important thing to know is that SDCC will factor in studio marketing plans, but I doubt we'll ever reach a phase now where SDCC reception is directly blamed for any success or failure. The Superhero genre is too mainstream now for that to happen.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 29, 2012, 09:45:29 AM
Superhero films have a built in audience for the most part, but what about other films that they push as brand new properties? Sucker Punch looked cool on paper as a con-promoted film. Girls in costumes fighting nazi zombies & Samurai robots? Cool, but in reality even an odd Jon Hamm cameo couldn't save that film.

Avatar did well as a new property if you want a counterpoint, but how many movies really make numbers like that?

If anything, I would think that we could see larger movie studios pull away from sdcc to focus on their own con much like disney's D23 just so they can capitalize on the money being made as well as keep the focus on their studio instead of fighting for attention with everything else.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on May 29, 2012, 10:06:31 AM
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If anything, I would think that we could see larger movie studios pull away from sdcc to focus on their own con much like disney's D23 just so they can capitalize on the money being made as well as keep the focus on their studio instead of fighting for attention with everything else.

I think before they start to pull away, we may see things like less free swag or less of the cast there doing promo. Instead, they may try to put up more signage to be more visible but just spend a lot less overall.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: The Gossamer on May 29, 2012, 10:59:06 AM
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The hype on that movie was so beyond even what it was at SDCC that I don't think you could blame SDCC alone. When it came out, the president of our company gave the entire engineering org the afternoon off and we went as a team to see it at the Alamo Drafthouse with an open bar.

Day off with free beer and movie! Sign me up at your company! :P
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 29, 2012, 12:52:24 PM
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If anything, I would think that we could see larger movie studios pull away from sdcc to focus on their own con much like disney's D23 just so they can capitalize on the money being made as well as keep the focus on their studio instead of fighting for attention with everything else.

This is an interesting idea. Would the studios ever band together and create their own 'con' or just continue to co-opt SDCC?

There doesn't seem to be a reason to break away from SDCC that I can see. It's close, it happens in the meat of the summer, it has an established name and awareness. Why go try to establish another brand.

With D23 not happening, will Disney make a bigger show than usual now that they own Marvel?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 29, 2012, 01:30:25 PM
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This is an interesting idea. Would the studios ever band together and create their own 'con' or just continue to co-opt SDCC?

There doesn't seem to be a reason to break away from SDCC that I can see. It's close, it happens in the meat of the summer, it has an established name and awareness. Why go try to establish another brand.

There would have to be a huge financial incentive for the studios to create their own Con. There's a lot of administrative hassle in place, and CCI takes care of all of that. Also, CCI is (relatively) neutral. If the studios were doing this together, one might feel they were being slighted in favor of another. I agree that it's unlikely the movie studios will make their own Con.

However, it's entirely possible they could migrate to another Con, if that other Con better met their needs. (cost, timing, fanbase, etc.)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 29, 2012, 02:34:50 PM
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However, it's entirely possible they could migrate to another Con, if that other Con better met their needs. (cost, timing, fanbase, etc.)

I can't imagine it. Maybe if they set up that Con in Anaheim and slowly migrate the film stuff there? Maybe putting it in the fall so they can build buzz through the winter and spring rather than being diluted with current films . . .

The more I talk about it, the more I like it.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 29, 2012, 03:26:20 PM
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I can't imagine it. Maybe if they set up that Con in Anaheim and slowly migrate the film stuff there? Maybe putting it in the fall so they can build buzz through the winter and spring rather than being diluted with current films . . .

The more I talk about it, the more I like it.

Actually, the traditional time for WonderCon (March/early April) works well for this kind of thing, because a lot of summer movies are released in May and June.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on May 29, 2012, 05:59:02 PM
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Actually, the traditional time for WonderCon (March/early April) works well for this kind of thing, because a lot of summer movies are released in May and June.

Yep, that would work too! The only tough part is attracting a big enough crowd when it isn't formally summer. Same prob with the fall.  Maybe move sdcc to late summer and do wonder in the sdcc spot? Clearly the timing needs to work.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 30, 2012, 08:02:39 AM
WonderCon seems to attract a fair number of people, although nowhere as many as SDCC, of course. It's a 3 day 'long weekend' Con, and I think most people can do that as long as they're not flying across the country.

I'm not sure 2 summer Cons would work...?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Mario_c on May 30, 2012, 09:21:14 AM
If sdcc were to move from mid july that would create chaos for all of the other comic & pop culture convention organizers world wide. Sdcc is the sleeping giant that nobody wants to disturb lest they wish for misfortune.

Look at what happened when Wizard tried to have a con the same weekend as nycc. There are only so many weeks in a year (52 to be exact) and the main conventions are basically from April-October. If sdcc shifts dates we can expect groans and complaints from almost every level because they too would have to make changes (fans-> vendors -> promoters -> MLB and so on)
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on May 30, 2012, 09:57:19 AM
Well there was a small change this year, to the second week of July (rather than the third week, as it has been for quite a few years and will be next year).
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: hikanteki on June 12, 2012, 12:21:41 PM
Yeah, and I even thought that was weird.  But moving one week is nowhere near the same as a few months...or even a month.

I agree that part of the appeal of ComicCon is the sensory overload factor.

Extending the days won't help much, in my opinion.  It could dilute the experience, put a strain on retailers AND create more demand.  People would still buy 6 day passes.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 12, 2012, 01:54:37 PM
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People would still buy 6 day passes.

Not if they don't sell them. :)

Can't buy what you can't get.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: hikanteki on June 12, 2012, 03:39:19 PM
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Not if they don't sell them. :)

Can't buy what you can't get.

So are you suggesting that they should extend it but only limit sales to a max of 4 (or other #) days?  Or just limit the # of days already?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 12, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
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So are you suggesting that they should extend it but only limit sales to a max of 4 (or other #) days?  Or just limit the # of days already?

Extend to 6 but sell in smaller blocks I would think. But it's not the best idea I've read.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 12, 2012, 10:59:52 PM
The day they tell me they are hosting SDCC but cant even go because i have the first three days is the day i refund my badges.  making people pick one block or the other is suicide.  If things get that bad just host a different convention in place of APE, or better yet put more focus on Wondercon.

Do keep in mind that this is different from those who bought Sat badges not being allowed to buy more days. As they were given full options at one point and chose not to partake at that time.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: tehlilone on June 13, 2012, 07:38:04 AM
From a business sense... more days simple = more costs and SDCC is only one convention during the year.

I wouldn't have a team of people planning the booth/agenda for a good chunk of time. There are way more important things for businesses/studios to be doing.

I wouldn't spend extra money to have people promote in the same location for an extended period of time.

I would try to consolidate my participation on the day(s) that reach the largest target audience.

I wouldn't bother having a booth on a cheap day if the attendance is so low that I don't make a profit.

From a multiple day perspective... as an attendee

I would try to buy all days or at least on a popular day.

I would need to have good guessing abilities regarding programming

I would spend less with vendors (main source of revenue) due to increased cost of tickets/transportation/housing.

It would be a waste of time to attend on a ghost town type of day.

I would have to choose between hobbies if they separated then to days and I couldn't go all days.

I would have to use more vacation time at work which leaves less time for other things or miss out.

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Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 13, 2012, 11:22:22 AM
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The day they tell me they are hosting SDCC but cant even go because i have the first three days is the day i refund my badges.  making people pick one block or the other is suicide.  If things get that bad just host a different convention in place of APE, or better yet put more focus on Wondercon.

Do keep in mind that this is different from those who bought Sat badges not being allowed to buy more days. As they were given full options at one point and chose not to partake at that time.

this seems fairly draconian, but if that pushes out a bunch of folks, it's probably a good thing.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 13, 2012, 11:32:05 AM
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From a business sense... more days simple = more costs and SDCC is only one convention during the year.

I wouldn't have a team of people planning the booth/agenda for a good chunk of time. There are way more important things for businesses/studios to be doing.

I wouldn't spend extra money to have people promote in the same location for an extended period of time.

I would try to consolidate my participation on the day(s) that reach the largest target audience.

I wouldn't bother having a booth on a cheap day if the attendance is so low that I don't make a profit.


You assume all of this is malleable for the vendors. It probably wouldn't be. You want the busy days? You come on the slower days. fwiw, there is no longer a real notion of a 'slow' day at SDCC. Once you reach capacity, you're at capacity.

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From a multiple day perspective... as an attendee

I would try to buy all days or at least on a popular day.

I would need to have good guessing abilities regarding programming


I think this is a good argument for separating out the programming or selling tix to Hall H/Ballroom 20. That people make their decision about going based on one panel and without that panel consider it a waste is ludicrous to me, but I guess that's the way some behave.

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I would spend less with vendors (main source of revenue) due to increased cost of tickets/transportation/housing.


I don't understand this one. Assume all *your* costs remain the same. pushing from 4-6 days doesn't mean anything if they wouldn't segment the population somehow. The goal is to service a larger base, not give the existing base more time there.

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It would be a waste of time to attend on a ghost town type of day.


seriously? this doesn't exist at SDCC

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I would have to choose between hobbies if they separated then to days and I couldn't go all days.


maybe. choose. nobody guarantees all things are universally available. It pretty much is there in the panel attendance policy.

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I would have to use more vacation time at work which leaves less time for other things or miss out.


so then don't go. plenty of others that want your spot.

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Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Kevin Rutan on June 13, 2012, 01:11:52 PM
It's probably time to give it up Trev. At this point you're only coming up with new ways to alienate vendors and attendees to justify any benefit to your plan. The CCI organizers can't be looking to switch to a system where they have to strong arm vendors to be there days they don't want or tell people they can't buy passes for days that haven't sold out.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on June 13, 2012, 02:13:22 PM
ok, i soooo want a "thumbs up' button.  (after the con, when i do ver. 2.1)

I couldn't have said it better kevin.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 13, 2012, 02:22:54 PM
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It's probably time to give it up Trev. At this point you're only coming up with new ways to alienate vendors and attendees to justify any benefit to your plan. The CCI organizers can't be looking to switch to a system where they have to strong arm vendors to be there days they don't want or tell people they can't buy passes for days that haven't sold out.

lol. the funny thing is that it wasn't my plan. :)

I just commented on some momentum that the 'more days' meme seemed to be having.

My plan is to break SDCC into 2-3 different cons that run with a bit of overlap.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 13, 2012, 02:33:27 PM
The bottom line is that SDCC can't grow to accommodate everybody that wants to go and still be all things to everybody. Choices have to be made or people just need to learn to deal with being upset.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on June 13, 2012, 02:59:16 PM
Just keep in mind that people will voice their opinions louder when they're really upset and that people who are happy with the process are less likely to share that opinion so while there is undoubtedly a large # of people who can't get in, I'd say a high percentage of that group is just meh about it but since we have the people who rant and rave and curse making themselves heard, it sounds much more dire than it really is.

I'd say the common reaction from my friends when they've asked about getting badges and being told that they're sold out is, "Damn. That sucks..." and then they talk about something else and they're probably bigger nerds than me.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Kevin Rutan on June 13, 2012, 03:13:41 PM
I look at the current situation like this, the oversaturation of the schedule is a good thing. People being forced to make choices about which panel they will go to is the only thing that keeps the lines somewhat managable. If the programming schedule  was more spread out over a longer period all of the popular panels would be even more of a nightmare. The level of complaints we see now would be nothing compared to that nightmare.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 14, 2012, 11:54:41 AM
At the end of the day stop trying to change SDCC to better suit YOUR needs or the needs of the whiners upset that they did not get badges. The system works well and only needs minor changes to fix bugs that pop up.  If you really feel there should be more convention time i suggest you make your own Con.  I have a friend at work who has been doing this for the past year, getting rental rates, contacting people to be guest, and looking for sponsors.  Its major work it sucks but you will get a better feel for what goes into CCIs daily job. 

You say this about serving a bigger fan base yet not once have i seen you suggest that those unable to go to SDCC try for WonderCon.  Its hosted by CCI also and is often said to be just like SDCC was before it went "mainstream".  Also i am sorry but all those people b***hing about Badges, needing to move to a new convention center, or making major changes to SDCC's format are not "fans".  Fans are loyal, grateful, and understanding.  Fans are fans because the LIKE something not because they want to change something just to they can partake.

A final thought on the subject of changing major events.  Ever wonder why there is only ONE Superbowl? How about a famous singer they do one show and move along.  Heck even a small circus only comes to town for a week.  These are events that sell because of the package they offer. People buy into an event and expect a certain level of return from it. Diluting and event just to bring in more people does nothing be diminish was the event not enhance it. They dont clear out the Superbowl at half time so they can bring in a new round of people, singers dont kick you out half way though a set.  When you are ready to talk about enhancing SDCC come back and talk i will be all ears. Keep trying to diminish, dilute, or pervert it and i will go Gandalf on you....YOU SHALE NOT PASS
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on June 14, 2012, 12:20:09 PM
Who you callin' a pervert? Oh.

I agree w/ what you're saying but I think constructive criticism should always be welcomed but that any changes should be minor and done over time. Major changes such as a different venue or extending the # of days should only be considered as a last resort and only after considerable research.

WonderCon is an excellent alternative especially for the Californians who miss out on SDCC. In some ways, it's more fun than SDCC since the size is much more manageable and the event less crowded. You might not get 4+ days of wall-to-wall excitement but you still get a ton of value for a fraction of the price.

BTW, 2 Super Bowls would give the Niners 2 times the opportunity to win another one! Sign me up!
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 14, 2012, 12:31:57 PM
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At the end of the day stop trying to change SDCC to better suit YOUR needs or the needs of the whiners upset that they did not get badges. The system works well and only needs minor changes to fix bugs that pop up.  If you really feel there should be more convention time i suggest you make your own Con.  I have a friend at work who has been doing this for the past year, getting rental rates, contacting people to be guest, and looking for sponsors.  Its major work it sucks but you will get a better feel for what goes into CCIs daily job. 

You say this about serving a bigger fan base yet not once have i seen you suggest that those unable to go to SDCC try for WonderCon.  Its hosted by CCI also and is often said to be just like SDCC was before it went "mainstream".  Also i am sorry but all those people b***hing about Badges, needing to move to a new convention center, or making major changes to SDCC's format are not "fans".  Fans are loyal, grateful, and understanding.  Fans are fans because the LIKE something not because they want to change something just to they can partake.

A final thought on the subject of changing major events.  Ever wonder why there is only ONE Superbowl? How about a famous singer they do one show and move along.  Heck even a small circus only comes to town for a week.  These are events that sell because of the package they offer. People buy into an event and expect a certain level of return from it. Diluting and event just to bring in more people does nothing be diminish was the event not enhance it. They dont clear out the Superbowl at half time so they can bring in a new round of people, singers dont kick you out half way though a set.  When you are ready to talk about enhancing SDCC come back and talk i will be all ears. Keep trying to diminish, dilute, or pervert it and i will go Gandalf on you....YOU SHALE NOT PASS

whoa . . . take a step back.

breathe in, breathe out
breathe in, breathe out

I think most people are only looking to help. If it is working for you now, cool. It works fine for me.

Nerd rage is a powerful thing.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: The Gossamer on June 14, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
When did this turn into a flame war? :-\
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on June 14, 2012, 01:21:34 PM
Just passionate fans discussing. As long as there are no direct personal attacks it can continue.

Ideally we would love to see ideas that can be presented at the talkback panel.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 14, 2012, 01:39:21 PM
For it to be a flame war it would have to turn personal.  I have no grudge against anyone here.  I have issues only with those type of people I stated above. Those whom feel the world should change to suit them.   As kvthia said consturctive comments are welcome but beating dead horses is not. 

As for my comments being nerd rage you are mistaken.  If I was nerd raging I would spout totally moronic statements ignoring any and all reasonable debate. Small changes to fix problems are needed there is no denying that.  I simply believe sdcc need a facelift not a full body replacement.

That is what we should be using or minds for....let's find the small things we can make meaningful changes to or suggestions about.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 14, 2012, 02:05:32 PM
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As for my comments being nerd rage you are mistaken.  If I was nerd raging I would spout totally moronic statements ignoring any and all reasonable debate. Small changes to fix problems are needed there is no denying that.  I simply believe sdcc need a facelift not a full body replacement.


I think it was bringing LoTR into it that pushed it over the edge for me. I'm sure it was a joke, as was what I wrote.

What small tweaks do you suggest? There are only three ways to deal with the current bottleneck:

1. Expand Capacity
2. Reduce Demand
3. Do Nothing and force people to deal

I think everybody hopes that 2 would happen naturally as Geek Culture starts to wane. It just doesn't look like it will happen soon. Certainly not in the foreseeable future. So that leaves artificial ways of achieving either of the first two.

I am fundamentally an advocate for number 3. If you read my comments, I think that's clear. But it is interesting to thing about ways of doing 1 and 2. As someone who runs a large business and works in a major corporation daily, I see a lot of possibilities.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Khaaaaaaanh!!! on June 14, 2012, 03:20:15 PM
I think option 1 is being worked on w/ the proposed expansion plans. Option 2 may happen on its own if Hollywood pulls back a bit or looks into their own vehicle for promoting their product. Option 3 comes w/ a small caveat in things like adding a Member ID system and tweaking the pre-reg.

As others have stated many times, there's always going to be a # of folks left out and they will always be the loudest complainers regardless of what system is in place.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: tehlilone on June 19, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
I say we just wait another 10 years until the being "nerdy" or "geeky" fad passes. Pop culture will find something else to latch on. We just need to ride out the wave.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: The Gossamer on June 20, 2012, 07:13:52 AM
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I say we just wait another 10 years until the being "nerdy" or "geeky" fad passes. Pop culture will find something else to latch on. We just need to ride out the wave.
     I do hope this "fad" does wane but if Hollywood continues to use this venue to roll out every movie and t.v. show it will not end. Long ago in the past before 2003 most people I know thought of the Comic Con as a pure geek fest and  looked at me as sort of a oddball attending all 4 days. They couldn't understand why someone would go at all. Now look at it years later and everyone is trying to jump on the bandwagon.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 20, 2012, 11:25:35 AM
Sorry for the long delay in answer was dealing with some personal things.

OK Trev this might be why we see things so differently.  You see a main issue that can only be solved with three options.  I see no main issue as those are so fair beyond our control and even CCIs control, its nuts.  SD will do whatever it thinks is best so that knocks off any sort of control over the expansion. Added days was already shot down by CCI as to hard on themselves, the vendors and fans trying to attend.  So what about option 2? There are really only a few ways to do this, price it way out of reach for many fans, Change what is offered so that SDCC is no longer see as the hot event any more, Host another event close to the timing of SDCC (this would still have to be some time after SDCC say 2-3 months).  The final option is 3 which is think is best. As already stated you cant please everyone, cant seat everyone, cant house everyone or even cant feed everyone. This option is really the only thing those of us not part of CCI can do.

I see issues with the ID system, Not really the IDs themselves but the limitation of the email and the company CCI uses.  I have spotted more then one data base issue with the service that lead to people not getting emails. IE emails sent to old emails even after CCI directed us to change them off yahoo and AOL.  Fix that issue one less snag in the system.

I see issues with CCI's partner companies lack of transparency. TP and Ace parking both basically went rogue this year and left CCI in the dark.  I wonder how many times a NDA stop CCI form pointing the finger at a partner calling them out on the hold ups and problems people place on them. Customer surveys like the one TP is doing right now and complaints to the companies will help them improve their relations not only with CCI but us.

Lines are another issue.  People will want to line up or room camp for their favorite panels or swag giveaways.  Elite and CCI need to partner more to be sure everyone is on the same page for lines and how to proper pack as many people into a line as safely posible. I am sure many people can tell you about line nightmares and BS events that happened do to a lack of training.  Teach them how to make, mark and plan for an expanding line.

Pre-reg for last years attendies.  Majorly hot topic but it does need to be handled fairly and soon. CCI as a business is bleeding off many long time attendees.  This is never good for any business but for CCI it could mean their death in the future. CCI has to walk a fine line of keeping old-timers happy so that when the geek chic bubble pops they will still have attendees and keeping enough openings for fresh blood that helps replace the normally losses each year + brings in new shoppers for the exhibit hall.  CCI has taken the first step in this process by doing their survey.  The question is what is the community willing to accept? 40% saved for returning, maybe 60%?

These are just a few of the things i think CCI has control over and could use extra minds helping them fix. 
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 20, 2012, 07:43:39 PM
Yes there is a large operating assumption that cci wants to service more fans but there is a chance that is false.

The rise in pricing over the last 3 years seems like an attempt to stem the demand.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 20, 2012, 10:07:57 PM
I dont think the rise in pricing is an attempt at stemming the tide of people wanting to join. I think cost have honestly gotten way out of hand.  I have no hard numbers to prove this but at one point we ran the cost of just the elites alone and it was something like 250K. that was using low end numbers, ya know those bus routes cost what a million easy for it?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: alyssa on June 21, 2012, 05:20:49 AM
i have to second Chris's assertion, if we want services like free shuttles, an android app, insurance so if CCI is sued it doesn't close, etc., we have to pay for it.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: escape on June 21, 2012, 05:34:52 AM
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Yes there is a large operating assumption that cci wants to service more fans but there is a chance that is false.

I honestly don't think that they'd want to have more fans.  I don't think the rise in pricing will be what does that anyway... I think it's the hoops they're making people jump through to attend in the first place.

As for fixing things, I think what needs to be recognized first is that CCI (IMO) created quite a bit of this hype themselves.  First, they took preview night down to a lower amount of people in 2009, causing a bunch of worry over getting 4 day + preview night passes.  Then, when that sold out of the preview night passes at SDCC 2010, they decided to only sell a certain amount of ALL passes during 2011. And THEN was the member ID system and the online ticket sales that were such a pain. All of this has made the hype and how hard it is to get a ticket even harder.  I think some of it is a gross over exaggeration of what reality was.  And now no onsite badges at all this year? 

In 2009, tickets sold out faster, but I was able to buy one (with preview night) all the way in November.   In 2010, I walked up to a kiosk in the Sails Pavilion at 3pm on Sunday afternoon and bought a 4 day + Preview night with absolutely no problems and with no line.  The only time I've had a problem was 2011, when we had to go offsite and lose a bunch of time in order to get a badge.   Hoops.  Every step they make is another hoop for fans to jump through. 

This is all opinion, of course, but I can say that I have become increasingly disappointed over the years.  People blame the increased media and the fans from other genres, etc.  But I do think that CCI has a VERY big role in what's going on and until they acknowledge that and work to actually do something, then it's not going to get better.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris on June 21, 2012, 06:55:26 AM
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The rise in pricing over the last 3 years seems like an attempt to stem the demand.

There has been a gradual increase in pricing each year for some time (since 2006?).  What this increase is for, I am unsure of.  Probably just the increasing cost of running the show/inflation/etc, but I could be wrong.

The reason for the big jump in pricing for the 4-day with preview passes is CCI was hearing that a number of people were buying full passes only to attend for one panel with no intention of using the pass for the reminder of the show.   When CCI announced ticket prices for 2012, they specifically said that they were increasing the price of the 4-day with preview to discourage that type of behavior to allow more people to attend all 4 days who really want to see the whole show and not just one panel.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 21, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
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There has been a gradual increase in pricing each year for some time (since 2006?).  What this increase is for, I am unsure of.  Probably just the increasing cost of running the show/inflation/etc, but I could be wrong.

The reason for the big jump in pricing for the 4-day with preview passes is CCI was hearing that a number of people were buying full passes only to attend for one panel with no intention of using the pass for the reminder of the show.   When CCI announced ticket prices for 2012, they specifically said that they were increasing the price of the 4-day with preview to discourage that type of behavior to allow more people to attend all 4 days who really want to see the whole show and not just one panel.

It went well beyond CoL, especially in last couple of years. My first year 4 day with preview was $75, the next year it was $95, then I bought a 4 day + preview on-site for $105 and when they went to the public they were like $125 or so, then last year it spiked to $175. So 2.3x over 4 years.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: The Gossamer on June 21, 2012, 08:55:22 AM
An interesting aspect of this is attendee price went up but vendor booth prices have remained the same. I know a local comic book store owner who told me this. He's thought on this was to help filter out people and keep dedicated geeks coming who are willing to pay the higher admission. Also to cover operating expenses and keep the vendors happy by not raising the booth prices. Just something to think about.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris on June 21, 2012, 09:25:19 AM
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It went well beyond CoL, especially in last couple of years. My first year 4 day with preview was $75, the next year it was $95, then I bought a 4 day + preview on-site for $105 and when they went to the public they were like $125 or so, then last year it spiked to $175. So 2.3x over 4 years.

According to CCI, the $175 spike is because of the whole "people buying a 4-day pass for one panel" thing.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 21, 2012, 09:34:18 AM
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According to CCI, the $175 spike is because of the whole "people buying a 4-day pass for one panel" thing.

I thought that was the reason to stop discounting 4 day over 4 individual days. Or do you mean something different?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris on June 21, 2012, 09:37:46 AM
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I thought that was the reason to stop discounting 4 day over 4 individual days. Or do you mean something different?

That too.  You and I are talking about the same thing.  :)  The "one panel" thing is the reason why they stopped the 4 day discount and why they had the $175 spike.  They had mentioned both in the same 2012 ticket prices annoucement. 
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 21, 2012, 11:04:35 AM
If it was really just to stop people from buying for one panel they could still allow discounts for long time attendees.  Heck maybe that is why they mentioned RFIDs in the badges.  It would be a great way to see who was coming to and enjoying all that CCI has to offer us.  Little tally marker for the number of times you traveled passed door check locations, used to help see active members.

As for the increases there was a major debate back on the FB page at one point. It boiled down to someone outright claiming CCI was exploiting their NPO status and paying themselves and all their workers outrageous wages. At this point someone with insider knowledge shot back quoting the averaged pay being something around 30-40K a year.  Once that did not work other random things were blamed for the cost increase as it did not match the standard COL.

As i see it CCI has had a number of things to pay out for and places to send the money made by SDCC. The most basic is CCI itself, IE the year around staffing needed to pull this off, web hosting, Database control companies like Epic and whoever is doing the CCI IDs/emails. All things convention center, this is to include the convention center (and build fees/permits), Staffing for the event (Sercurity, Techs, temp staff, Fire marshals and any other bodies i am forgetting), Contracts related to just SDCC (shuttle service, TP, Ace Parking, and all the small things like catering ect).  I am sure i am missing many things but that is the general idea.  Now on top of that we would have all money funded towards CCIs other projects like Wondercon, APE con, and the CCI-IFF).

The funniest thing about all this talk and some of the loud moaning that could be heard on FB site, is that no one EVER makes this much of a fuss if any other business changes prices.  Nor do you see the public caught up in the firestorm of blame and accusation over improper use of money (against other NPOs). As it was said earlier people dejected over not being able to get badges are randomly lashing out trying to place blame on anyone and anything other then dumb luck and themselves.  On a sidenote slightly related did any of yall know Disneyland is going to increase its cost for yearly tickets by nearly 150$?
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 21, 2012, 12:08:48 PM
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If it was really just to stop people from buying for one panel they could still allow discounts for long time attendees.  Heck maybe that is why they mentioned RFIDs in the badges.  It would be a great way to see who was coming to and enjoying all that CCI has to offer us.  Little tally marker for the number of times you traveled passed door check locations, used to help see active members.

As for the increases there was a major debate back on the FB page at one point. It boiled down to someone outright claiming CCI was exploiting their NPO status and paying themselves and all their workers outrageous wages. At this point someone with insider knowledge shot back quoting the averaged pay being something around 30-40K a year.  Once that did not work other random things were blamed for the cost increase as it did not match the standard COL.

As i see it CCI has had a number of things to pay out for and places to send the money made by SDCC. The most basic is CCI itself, IE the year around staffing needed to pull this off, web hosting, Database control companies like Epic and whoever is doing the CCI IDs/emails. All things convention center, this is to include the convention center (and build fees/permits), Staffing for the event (Sercurity, Techs, temp staff, Fire marshals and any other bodies i am forgetting), Contracts related to just SDCC (shuttle service, TP, Ace Parking, and all the small things like catering ect).  I am sure i am missing many things but that is the general idea.  Now on top of that we would have all money funded towards CCIs other projects like Wondercon, APE con, and the CCI-IFF).

The funniest thing about all this talk and some of the loud moaning that could be heard on FB site, is that no one EVER makes this much of a fuss if any other business changes prices.  Nor do you see the public caught up in the firestorm of blame and accusation over improper use of money (against other NPOs). As it was said earlier people dejected over not being able to get badges are randomly lashing out trying to place blame on anyone and anything other then dumb luck and themselves.  On a sidenote slightly related did any of yall know Disneyland is going to increase its cost for yearly tickets by nearly 150$?

Are they doing RFID this year? My company's annual conference uses that and it is AWESOME. As an attendee they could tell me every session I went to, get me presentations, speaker surveys etc. As a speaker I got to see how many people in each session, where they were from, etc.

RFID will be HUGE to helping them refine panels, decide what there should be more or less of, who to invite back, etc.

This is awesome news.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Trev on June 21, 2012, 12:10:06 PM
also I think we can tell from the annual report that the salaries are definitely not out of whack, especially for southern california.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Daniel H on June 21, 2012, 12:43:06 PM
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also I think we can tell from the annual report that the salaries are definitely not out of whack, especially for southern california.

I have a friend that has been working for CCI for many many years...they are not paid that much, lol!
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Chris Hagish on June 21, 2012, 11:17:59 PM
Remember the quote i gaven was suppose to be a generalization of all CCI employees...from the top down so i would expect it to be higher then the normal people we might know, while being much less then say a board member or other higher up.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: Transmute Jun on June 24, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
A number of good points have been raised regarding the costs CCI faces to operate. Issues like Member IDs, increased customer service, etc. also increase costs. The increased costs of badges are likely a reflection of this.

FWIW, CCI is VERY cheap. When you break it down to a per day basis, it's minimal. Compare the per day cost to the price of a hotel room and airfare and you'll see that badge prices are just a drop in the bucket of your overall cost to attend.
Title: Re: Discussion re: CCI FB comments (from CCI Posts and Announcements Forum)
Post by: The Gossamer on June 25, 2012, 07:11:02 AM
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A number of good points have been raised regarding the costs CCI faces to operate. Issues like Member IDs, increased customer service, etc. also increase costs. The increased costs of badges are likely a reflection of this.

FWIW, CCI is VERY cheap. When you break it down to a per day basis, it's minimal. Compare the per day cost to the price of a hotel room and airfare and you'll see that badge prices are just a drop in the bucket of your overall cost to attend.
I agree Transmute. For 4 days and nearly all access to many panels/events it is reasonable. A 2 hr. concert ticket near the front can cost way more then this event not to mention some major sporting events. Going to Disneyland for just a day drains my wallet.
  I would not be surprised to see a major ticket price increase. I for one would still buy a badge in an instant even if it would double in price.