Friends of Comic Cons
Comic-Con International => CCI General Discussion => Topic started by: alyssa on July 04, 2022, 06:43:57 PM
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I'm running into a few sites selling badges
anyone know where to report them ?
here's one
https://www.eventticketscenter.com/san-diego-comic-con-san-diego-tickets/570020/e
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Im not sure where to report but i see a feew posting on ebay to
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I'm running into a few sites selling badges
anyone know where to report them ?
here's one
https://www.eventticketscenter.com/san-diego-comic-con-san-diego-tickets/570020/e
Use the Contact Us link on CCI website and send them this link.
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I dont see how these people are going to get through the covid check, unless the selling flys in to do that before they hand them the badges. I think on ebay you can report it too
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How do you know they are fraudulent?
It's not illegal to sell badges, it is just against SDCC's policies.
Most likely they are real, whoever buys them uses them with no problem...since they almost never check ID.
Unless you know they are fake there isn't really any thing to report.
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It's fraud because SDCC badges are non-transferrable. If you transfer a badge, it is invalid. So unless the sellers are advertising these as invalid badges that will not actually grant you admission to the Convention, they are misrepresenting what they are selling, which is fraud by definition (although I'm not sure what makes fraud legally actionable).
Whether or not anyone is caught using the badges is irrelevant to whether or not selling them is fraud.
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Unless you sign a contract with someone it is perfectly legal to sell an item marked not for transfer or not for resale. That being said....I haven't ever read all the fine print when checking out on the lottery so there may be some wording there that constitutes as signing a contract, like: "upon check out you are signing into a contract to not sell or transfer your badge to another party." It could be there, and if so it would be up to CCI to bring up court claims for someone in breach of contract. Not something I have heard of them doing...but it is possible. This wouldn't be fraud, it would be a breach of contract case.
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@stl_ben (https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3236) You're splitting hairs here. You know the forum doesn't endorse purposely violating CCI's policies, and selling your non-transferrable badge is a violation of their policy even if it's not technically illegal. I have not read the fine print when checking out either, but I have read the CCI policy stating that they retain the right to revoke a badge for any reason. Transferring a non-transferrable badge is a pretty obvious reason.
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I have heard stories of them pulling badges and revoking ability to participate in badge sales for not being able to show ID that matches the badge. While this is pretty rare, it does illustrate how CCI feels about such things.
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@stl_ben (https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3236) You're splitting hairs here. You know the forum doesn't endorse purposely violating CCI's policies, and selling your non-transferrable badge is a violation of their policy even if it's not technically illegal. I have not read the fine print when checking out either, but I have read the CCI policy stating that they retain the right to revoke a badge for any reason. Transferring a non-transferrable badge is a pretty obvious reason.
Sorry if I went too far in the weeds. I am all for this board not allowing badges sales and being against it in general. I also get that to some it's frustrating to see them for sale (but its always going to happen). I personally just think trying to hunt down people and reporting them is a whole different thing. And unless you know the sellers name and/or the name on the badge there is not much anyone can report.
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In the Badges Terms & Conditions on the CCI site:
By registering for a paid or complimentary Comic-Con badge you agree not to sell, trade, transfer or share your complimentary code, badge confirmation, or badge. In the event that SDCC determines that you have violated this policy, SDCC has the right to cancel your entire badge order and keep any money paid by you.
Confirmations and/or badges that have been sold or provided by anyone other than SDCC will not be honored by SDCC. You must wear and display your badge at all times while onsite and at any official SDCC event. All badges are the property of SDCC and must be relinquished to SDCC upon request. Comic-Con reserves the right to refuse admission, to refuse service and/or to cancel/revoke your Member ID and/or badge at SDCC’s discretion
They don't really need to go after the sellers or the buyers here, they just need to have the site owner take these listings down.
What we report to CCI is that this site is allowing the sale of SDCC badges so that they can take action if they wish.
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It's not necessarily about punishing the sellers either - lots of people who want to go to SDCC don't actually know the badges are non-transferrable. So getting the listings taken down protects those people from buying a badge and potentially trying to use it, getting caught by CCI, and getting banned from going to SDCC for years to come.
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One other thing about badges this year, due to the Covid checks, you actually have to show your Govt ID and it must match the name on any Covid test or documentation you provide. While it doesn't say they will check your badge against this info, one would think this is one way they can can do so this year.
Agreed though that in years past, they have never done anything to check your badge name to who you really are, this year actually presents a way for them to do so. I wonder if the sellers are telling the folks who buy the badges this, I'm guessing not.
Finally, I recall vaguely (although its been awhile) that prior to checking out buying badges, you usually click a box saying that you agree to the terms and conditions for SDCC's policies (which include not selling the badges). That's your contract signing there.
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From what I remember about buying badges, you have to type in the word AGREE.
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It's not necessarily about punishing the sellers either - lots of people who want to go to SDCC don't actually know the badges are non-transferrable. So getting the listings taken down protects those people from buying a badge and potentially trying to use it, getting caught by CCI, and getting banned from going to SDCC for years to come.
Yes. I am sure plenty of people don't know that they can't buy a badge from someone else. You will be ID'd if the rfid in your badge doesn't scan. So there is always a risk.
CCI does act on badge sales online when they see them or people report them. They try to get them taken down.
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I dont see how these people are going to get through the covid check, unless the selling flys in to do that before they hand them the badges. I think on ebay you can report it too
There's no correlation to your badge for the covid check. For many people, they'll have to go through vaccination verification before they even pick up their badges.
Unless you sign a contract with someone it is perfectly legal to sell an item marked not for transfer or not for resale.
You do that when you buy the badges. It's up to you to read the terms and conditions before you agree to them.
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There's no correlation to your badge for the covid check. For many people, they'll have to go through vaccination verification before they even pick up their badges.
You do that when you buy the badges. It's up to you to read the terms and conditions before you agree to them.
And CCI makes you go through the extra step of actually typing AGREE rather than check a box.
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And CCI makes you go through the extra step of actually typing AGREE rather than check a box.
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Yeah I forgot that was there completely. That for sure covers their end of the contract, from there it would just be up to how litigious they wanted to be about anyone that breaks it.
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Yeah I forgot that was there completely. That for sure covers their end of the contract, from there it would just be up to how litigious they wanted to be about anyone that breaks it.
They don't have to be litigious. What companies generally do when someone breaks the terms is ban them for life. That's what Meta does. That's what Paypal does. It would be easy for SDCC to figure out who's selling the badges. They can buy them.
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One other thing about badges this year, due to the Covid checks, you actually have to show your Govt ID and it must match the name on any Covid test or documentation you provide. While it doesn't say they will check your badge against this info, one would think this is one way they can can do so this year.
Agreed though that in years past, they have never done anything to check your badge name to who you really are, this year actually presents a way for them to do so. I wonder if the sellers are telling the folks who buy the badges this, I'm guessing not.
Finally, I recall vaguely (although its been awhile) that prior to checking out buying badges, you usually click a box saying that you agree to the terms and conditions for SDCC's policies (which include not selling the badges). That's your contract signing there.
They do not check your badge against your COVID documentation (at least, not at CCSE or WonderCon). You're actually supposed to go through the COVID check before badge pickup, so you may not even have your badge (if it wasn't mailed) before the check.
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They don't have to be litigious. What companies generally do when someone breaks the terms is ban them for life. That's what Meta does. That's what Paypal does. It would be easy for SDCC to figure out who's selling the badges. They can buy them.
I mean if a scalper got his email/address banned from buying all they would do is open a new email account / set up a new PO Box. (Paypal a little harder to get around as they require identifying info like social security number). But I digress, people thatwant to break the rules will find a way. People that are following the rules are usually the ones that pay the price.
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They do not check your badge against your COVID documentation (at least, not at CCSE or WonderCon). You're actually supposed to go through the COVID check before badge pickup, so you may not even have your badge (if it wasn't mailed) before the check.
Huh. Weird. One would have thought they do badge and Covid check at the same time (or Covid AFTER you pick up your badge). After all, why would you need the Covid check unless you were attending SDCC.
Anyways, I probably should have clarified, that SDCC COULD do a check with your badge and ID like this if they wanted to, but I guess it will remain to be seen if they would this year. If they didn't do this at CCSE or Wondercon, I guess they probably won't at SDCC.
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Huh. Weird. One would have thought they do badge and Covid check at the same time (or Covid AFTER you pick up your badge). After all, why would you need the Covid check unless you were attending SDCC.
Anyways, I probably should have clarified, that SDCC COULD do a check with your badge and ID like this if they wanted to, but I guess it will remain to be seen if they would this year. If they didn't do this at CCSE or Wondercon, I guess they probably won't at SDCC.
The reason they do the COVID check first is that they won't let you into the convention center (to pick up a badge) without a wristband. They want to keep unchecked people out of the building.
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Huh. Weird. One would have thought they do badge and Covid check at the same time (or Covid AFTER you pick up your badge). After all, why would you need the Covid check unless you were attending SDCC.
Anyways, I probably should have clarified, that SDCC COULD do a check with your badge and ID like this if they wanted to, but I guess it will remain to be seen if they would this year. If they didn't do this at CCSE or Wondercon, I guess they probably won't at SDCC.
Doing the COVID check after the badge check makes sense from an event perspective but not from a COVID perspective. Even if someone turns out not to have a valid badge/showed up on the wrong day/whatever, you still want everyone within the event vicinity to be COVID-safe (I know vax/testing/masks aren't 100%, but you know what I mean). It's more important that everyone on the grounds is COVID-safe than that they're supposed to be there. It's the same "safety perimeter" at most concerts - you go through the metal detector/bag check BEFORE you go through the ticket scanners.
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Didn't think of it like that. Makes sense now how they do it. Thanks for the clarifications.
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I mean if a scalper got his email/address banned from buying all they would do is open a new email account / set up a new PO Box. (Paypal a little harder to get around as they require identifying info like social security number). But I digress, people thatwant to break the rules will find a way. People that are following the rules are usually the ones that pay the price.
You are leaving out the big identifier, name. Someone's name and just city is pretty identifying. Add a full address and it's pretty unique. Not to mention phone number and credit card number. If SDCC wants to get serious, there are sophisticated ways to do this. Which isn't particularly hard since most people leak PII like a sieve. Paypal doesn't require a SSN unless you receive or are looking like you will receive over $600/year. But even without a SSN, people have found it's pretty hard to avoid a Paypal or Meta ban now.
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You are leaving out the big identifier, name. Someone's name and just city is pretty identifying. Add a full address and it's pretty unique. Not to mention phone number and credit card number. If SDCC wants to get serious, there are sophisticated ways to do this. Which isn't particularly hard since most people leak PII like a sieve. Paypal doesn't require a SSN unless you receive or are looking like you will receive over $600/year. But even without a SSN, people have found it's pretty hard to avoid a Paypal or Meta ban now.
Also, even if the scalper has to start a ne Member ID account (which they could likely do) that account will not have pre-reg eligibility, which makes it much more difficult to get badges in the future.
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Also, even if the scalper has to start a ne Member ID account (which they could likely do) that account will not have pre-reg eligibility, which makes it much more difficult to get badges in the future.
Excellent point.
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You are leaving out the big identifier, name. Someone's name and just city is pretty identifying. Add a full address and it's pretty unique. Not to mention phone number and credit card number. If SDCC wants to get serious, there are sophisticated ways to do this. Which isn't particularly hard since most people leak PII like a sieve. Paypal doesn't require a SSN unless you receive or are looking like you will receive over $600/year. But even without a SSN, people have found it's pretty hard to avoid a Paypal or Meta ban now.
It's not really hard to get around any of those. Addresses can be played around with, you can use a middle name, you could use an ID that doesn't have your home address tied to it, you can get chinese phone numbers cheap en masse, you can get virtual cards like privacy which allow you to create burner cards, etc. And realistically at the end of the day I don't think SDCC really cares as much as we do. It's a business, they want to sell badges.
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@nootheroptions (https://www.friendsofcc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4657) They make you agree not to transfer badges, they don't permit reselling or scalping, they have third party sites take down badge sales when they find them, they occasionally spot check IDs against badge names, they only allow previous attendees to register in the pre-sale, and they ban people for life for breaking these rules.
Other than creating an entire department devoted to nothing but badge enforcement, I'm not certain what more they could do to prove that they actually *do* care.
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Those are actions taken post sale. It doesn't do anything other than ensuring after the main sale that they are covered. A "lifetime ban" doesn't do much when all you have to do is use a friends address and your middle name to get around it. Literally every major sporting event is non transferable, yet they are all sold on secondary markets. That's not done because they care about fans, they're trying to protect their own investments. They don't do much to stop people from buying multiples in the first place. They stop third party sites? Why is there tons of listings on Stubhub one of the biggest resell brokers around?
Here's a five year old post from a Stubhub employee saying that basically they don't care what vendors say (NYCC though) and they havn't found it to be an issue in the past that the badges were tagged non transferable.
https://stubhub.community/t5/Buying-and-Purchased-tickets/Regarding-quot-Nontransferable-quot-Tickets-and-Comic-Con/td-p/589
I don't think there's much to show they *do* care, because they take the same actions every other venue does. At the end of the day it's a business, they want to make money.
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But for most conventions you CAN resell tickets, although you often have to go through the convention itself to do it (i.e. NYCC and Lyte). And that is definitely so that they can control the market/make more money.
But CCI has no permitted way to resell badges, and they are a registered non-profit organization whose stated mission includes bringing comics and comics-adjacent art forms to as many people as possible. I'm sure they'd like to have more operating cash, but profit is literally not their motive.
Their enforcement isn't perfect, and they don't have sophisticated systems in place to ferret out all the unscrupulous people who flout the rules for their own profit, because that costs manpower and money (both of which CCI is usually short on). But that doesn't indicate to me that they don't care.
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But for most conventions you CAN resell tickets, although you often have to go through the convention itself to do it (i.e. NYCC and Lyte). And that is definitely so that they can control the market/make more money.
But CCI has no permitted way to resell badges, and they are a registered non-profit organization whose stated mission includes bringing comics and comics-adjacent art forms to as many people as possible. I'm sure they'd like to have more operating cash, but profit is literally not their motive.
Their enforcement isn't perfect, and they don't have sophisticated systems in place to ferret out all the unscrupulous people who flout the rules for their own profit, because that costs manpower and money (both of which CCI is usually short on). But that doesn't indicate to me that they don't care.
You don't need a high tech system in place, queue it literally has built in functionality around flagging suspect activity. It's not turned on for either the hotel sale or the general badge sale. Also the non-profit status of Comic-con doesn't mean much. The NFL was a non profit up until 2015 since the 40s. It just means their primary goal isn't to generate profit, not that there is no goal to generate profit. You can be sure they still are looking at how much they make, especially post COVID but I don't want to digress too much.
Honestly I am all for limiting scalpers and feel free to report them. I just don't see anything being done when sites like Stubhub don't really seem interested in cooperating. I don't want to argue, I just am not on the same page is all.
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A "lifetime ban" doesn't do much when all you have to do is use a friends address and your middle name to get around it.
As Transmute Jun pointed out, it does when you lose your comic-con account and thus returning registration.
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As Transmute Jun pointed out, it does when you lose your comic-con account and thus returning registration.
When you have as many accounts as a professional ticket seller has they have no problem having plenty of other accounts / plenty of log ins so when its time for either sale they get through no problem. Think of it as buying groups, but for one person x100.
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CCI cares more than you think. They take their mission and promise very seriously. All the people that run it are lifelong nerds who have spent their lives with the organization and started as attendees. Their insular nature and slow to change ways are symptoms of that. They don't like letting outsiders have any kind of control. And they REALLY do not like people scalping badges and taking advantage of fans and the organization.
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When you have as many accounts as a professional ticket seller has they have no problem having plenty of other accounts / plenty of log ins so when its time for either sale they get through no problem. Think of it as buying groups, but for one person x100.
SDCC's solution for that is that they don't just ban you, they ban everyone in your buying group. It'll just hurt x100 if it's a buying group of 100 alternate identities.
https://www.reddit.com/r/comiccon/comments/8k77sa/dont_try_to_buysell_sdcc_badges/
You can also be banned from ebay. PayPal actively bans people if they sell prohibited items. While SDCC and ebay might not ban you for life, PayPal will and they really mean it.
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SDCC's solution for that is that they don't just ban you, they ban everyone in your buying group. It'll just hurt x100 if it's a buying group of 100 alternate identities.
https://www.reddit.com/r/comiccon/comments/8k77sa/dont_try_to_buysell_sdcc_badges/
You can also be banned from ebay. PayPal actively bans people if they sell prohibited items. While SDCC and ebay might not ban you for life, PayPal will and they really mean it.
Too much paranoia floating around here.
It take's like 5 seconds to make a spare account. And 100 identities wouldn't be tied together anyway? You'd ban 4 at most in a given run because that's all that was on the order. Even per that reddit link you sent, they could participate in open reg so it wasn't even a ban just a cancellation.
Paypal isn't banning anyone for selling tickets, especially not since they're associated directly with eBay anymore. Ebay also isn't banning you unless you are a many time multiple offender. I'd know, I've had stuff pulled multiple times before on eBay and my accounts still intact.
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It take's like 5 seconds to make a spare account. And 100 identities wouldn't be tied together anyway? You'd ban 4 at most in a given run because that's all that was on the order.
As discussed in that Reddit thread, like Meta and PayPal, SDCC only allows for one account per person. Like Meta and PayPal, SDCC actively tries to identify duplicate accounts and deletes them. They even said as much in the violation letter they sent out to that person "all your memberships have been cancelled."
"Only one Member ID is required per person. Please do not attempt to create multiple Member ID accounts."
"Multiple registrations will be deleted."
"SDCC will periodically review all Member ID accounts, and if duplicates are found, they will be automatically deleted."
https://www.comic-con.org/cci/comic-con-member-id
Even per that reddit link you sent, they could participate in open reg so it wasn't even a ban just a cancellation.
As per that violation letter. The current year's badges are cancelled. The violator is banned from attending the following year. After that they can participate in open registration again.
Paypal isn't banning anyone for selling tickets, especially not since they're associated directly with eBay anymore. Ebay also isn't banning you unless you are a many time multiple offender. I'd know, I've had stuff pulled multiple times before on eBay and my accounts still intact.
PayPal does ban people for transacting restricted items. If you read the countless posts about "I've been permanently limited, I didn't do anything wrong!". Right after checking if someone is 18 and over, the next question is whether they transacted a prohibited item. The reason PayPal may give you is "Some of your products or services are in violation of the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy and you can no longer use PayPal".
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PayPal does ban people for transacting restricted items. If you read the countless posts about "I've been permanently limited, I didn't do anything wrong!". Right after checking if someone is 18 and over, the next question is whether they transacted a prohibited item. The reason PayPal may give you is "Some of your products or services are in violation of the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy and you can no longer use PayPal".
That is a broad statement used to justify a false narrative. I can assure everyone that Paypal WILL NOT BAN anyone for reselling Comic Con badge. The majority the bans stem from financial crime/fraud or the company takes a loss from the individual/entity involved. Furthermore, anyone who met me in person in this forum knows that I am a risk manager at a large publicly traded financial institution with extensive experience in payments. My source is an ex-colleague who currently is on the the Governance, Risk, and Compliance team at Paypal.
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That is a broad statement used to justify a false narrative.
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Account-limits-and-verification/Selling-tickets/td-p/153580
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https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Account-limits-and-verification/Selling-tickets/td-p/153580
It is immaterial. Moreover the comments from your PayPal Community Forum lack depth and transparency. E.g. nobody fully disclosed their business type and was the account even approved for the transaction type? However, reading between the lines, PayPal probably didn’t want to do business with the individual/ or entity commenting due to credit risk for volumes not approved from the accountholder.
Also you are comparing apples and oranges. No one is going to close your personal account over a few Comic Con badges. And if you have over 100 badges, open a business account and get it approved! The End.
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Perhaps this thread has run its course and it's time to bring it to a close soon, as the original question was regarding reporting badge resales to CCI...