Author Topic: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)  (Read 1434 times)

Offline mark

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2019, 10:43:51 PM »
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I rewatched the first ep. with a friend and noticed something kinda interesting (a few things, related, actually):

The opening story regarding the Tulsa Race Riots are a sort of darker version of Superman's origin:
With their world crumbling around them (both figuratively with the white violence against blacks AND literally with the movie theater crumbling under the violence), two parents desperately put their child into an enclosed vessel to send to an unknown desperation in hopes he'll be found and taken care of while essentially accepting their fate/demise.
Of course, instead of Ma and Pa Kent the boy instead finds a baby and finds himself alone.

Now, in the Watchmen canon, what Superhero do we know that could still be around in 2019 but an elementary school-aged child late spring of 1921?  All of the original "Minutemen" (the original team-up of supers/vigilantes) were later found murdered, died in 'action,' or committed to an insane asylum.
Except for one;

Hooded Justice.

Nothing is really known of Hooded Justice, including his origins or his actual identity.  His first appearance on the scene was the late 1930's: roughly 17 years after the Race Riots in Tulsa.  Hooded Justice's look (as demonstrated in advertising and 'commercials' for the TV show in "Watchmen" series about the original Minutemen) has a large rope around his head that could easily be a reference to a large rope noose (ala one used in lynchings and hangings).  He was originally thought to be like a circus strongman, which could explain why a 100 year old man has the strength to life 200 pounds (though, to be fair, I don't think Don Johnson weighs quite that much).  It was suspected that Comedian hunted down and killed Hooded Justice, but there is zero evidence of this and at best can be deemed "inconclusive."  There are other details of Hooded Justice that may or may not have a factor in this 'remix' of Watchmen canon.

Seems plausible, I guess.  Like I mentioned, it feels like the first episode posed more questions than answers (which is a good thing IMO); I'm looking forward to see how all of this plays out!

*EDIT TO ADD A DETAIL*
Watched a clip of the ending and realized the old man's wardrobe at the end at the very least has an intriguing color scene very reminiscent of Hooded Justice: dark colored suit w/a red coat/hoodie!



Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2019, 12:03:42 PM »
I've regrettably gotten off-track here due to various reasons but wanted to chime in now that the show is in the home stretch, with just 2 more episodes left in the season.

First of all, I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts who haven't read the comics.  Series creator/show runner Damon Lindelof has called this series a "remix" of the original comics, and now that we're almost through it I do believe that's a pretty apt description.  The show is definitely a sequel to the comics, but I truly think this show feels like it can be enjoyed nearly as much for folks who haven't read the comics.

But for those of us who've read the books, this show is a treasure trove of 'easter eggs' and flat-out plot points that relate back to the comics, even if the vast majority of characters are brand new to the series, or act in vastly different ways to feel like new characters (such as Laurie Blake, Laurie Juspeczyk/Silk Specter in the comics who is now an FBI agent who heads an Anti-Vigilante task force).  I grew up with "The Watchmen" books: when they originally came out I was in elementary school and they 100% blew my mind and awoke me to the fact that comics weren't just guys in suits beating down diabolical villains.  I've been really enjoying pouring these episodes looking for easter eggs that connect dots to the larger Watchmen universe, and each episode has delivered all of that and much much more.

As the third-to-last episode aired, I came to the realization that it's taken SEVEN full episodes before any sort of concrete plot was revealed to the audience.  We spent 6+ hours with character w/out knowing how they're connected to each other (I'm looking at you, Lady Trieu).  And the amazing thing is, I couldn't care less.  Watchmen has populated its world with so many fascinating characters, I think maybe only "The Simpsons" and "Parks & Recreation" can rival the amount of incredibly compelling characters (and they had many seasons to develop them, while Watchmen did so in maybe half a short season).  Every character introduced in this series has been wildly compelling to me, and I've truly cherished every moment spent with them all: even finding myself wishing Don Johnson's character was around more to enjoy (especially after seeing the actor shine in KNIVES OUT, but the 'Don Johnson Renaissance is an entirely different topic/conversation  :P ).  When a character is not in an episode, I've found myself literally missing their presence: actually wishing for longer episodes so we can check in on folks we missed (I was fairly bummed during the Veidt-free drug-trip episodes, and I've missed Louis Gossett Jr. too).

I literally can't remember the last time I was this excited for a drama series.  While I don't care about that 'format wars' between "drop all the streaming episodes at once" vs "tease them out weekly," I both love the excitement that waiting a week as built, and hate having to wait 7 days between episodes.  "True Detective" was maybe the last drama I felt this way about, though I feel "Watchmen" has far more compelling characters and situations.

We find ourselves with two episodes left, and I can't even begin to imagine where we're going to end up with the plot/story lines.  Will Looking Glass make a triumphant, hero return? Will Dr. Manhattan come to save the day (or doom it)?  What does the Millennium Clock do: how will it save humanity?!  Will the racist a-holes be demolished sufficiently?!?!?!

We'll maybe find out soon.  Or maybe we won't.  Those familiar with the comics, and life itself to be honest, know that life rarely has neat and tidy answers and solutions to huge problems.  It wouldn't surprise me if much is left unanswered.  Heck, as a kid I remember being both incredibly livid AND in awe that the comics (spoilers for 30+ year old comics)
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: but even that ending was oddly satisfying to me then, and moreso now.

And what's going on with Adrian Veidt?!?!  One of the most amusing aspects of this series is the bonkers side stories involving Veidt trying to escape his 'prison' off of a moon of Jupiter.  Lindelof has explicitly said each episode featuring Veidt is another year past (as hinted-at-but-not-explicitly-stated in various scenes, such as the clones celebrating...some anniversary...in several consecutive episodes), and I'm wondering if his 8 or so year journey will have a conclusion in the next few episodes.

I really love what this series has been giving us, and to say I'm anxiously awaiting to see where it ultimately takes us would be an understatement.  I read what sounds like a pronouncement that "The Watchmen" is a one-and-done series, at least as far as Damon Lindelof is concerned.  Maybe that means it will feel finite and complete in 9 days.  Maybe this can be like a "True Detective," where a different Executive Producer comes in with their own ideas and new characters to add to the universe (with maybe some bleed-over from Season 1).  I don't know.

And I truly love that.  In this day-and-age where we know sequences of movie and TV franchises well in advance, I'm truly enjoying have zero ideas where "The Watchmen" is going, even this deep into the season!  This type of engagement + this type of legit mystery feels incredibly rare, and I'm loving every single moment of this show's ride.

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: Today at 08:38:07 AM »

Offline lborgia88

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2019, 04:28:31 PM »
I just watched the latest episode of Watchmen on Monday, as it happened to be on HBO right after His Dark Materials.  Even though I had no clue what was going on, I was drawn in and watched the whole thing.  I plan now to watch it all, in the correct order, on HBO Go.

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:38:07 AM »

Offline Jim Watari

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2019, 07:12:27 AM »
Wow episode 8 , can't wait until the finale next week
The more things change, the more they stay the same

Hoban 'Wash' Washburn: It's okay, I'm a leaf on the wind!
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: What does that mean?

Offline miclpea

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2019, 07:42:45 AM »
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Wow episode 8 , can't wait until the finale next week
I agree!


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Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2019, 10:32:26 AM »
Calling this series "a remix" of the comics is maybe the most apt. description: certainly for the penultimate episode that featured the return of Dr. Manhattan.  In the Watchmen universe, Dr. Manhattan is the only true 'super powered' being, with god-like powers.  We caught a glimpse of his origin story compliments of Adrian Veidt's stage play in an earlier episode, and Episode 8 (brilliantly titled "A God Walks Into Abar") feels very much like a remix of one of the original comic issues (I want to say Issue 4 "Watchmaker", but I don't have the books in front of me at the moment and could be wrong).  The episode, like the comic issue, centers on Dr. Manhattan, with his 'narrations' and commentary/dialogue taking us through multiple timelines and giving us a small experience of his existence through all timelines.  I think as I watched the episode Sunday evening, by the halfway point as I was grinning throughout, I muttered "those sons of b***hes: they pulled it off!"  For fans of the comics, this episode felt the closest to any of the books in the most brilliant of ways.

I love that it took around the 40-45 minute mark before we got any 'current story' plot points revved up.  Episode 7 left us with quite the conundrum, where we knew definitively Dr. Manhattan was indeed living among us, as Angela's husband Cal.  I kinda love how there is so much story to wrap-up, and the last episode will have a lot to resolve.
Or not.  Alan Moore was pretty explicit in the original books conveying that life often has no clear-cut easy answers or solutions.  As Dr. Manhattan famously tells Veidt at the end of the books, when asked if it was all worth it in the end, “Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.”  It wouldn't surprise me if there are a few loose ends in what Lindelof has said is a stand-alone season (though, he lies so often in interviews it's hard to put a ton of stock in that).

There was so much to enjoy in "A God Walks Into Abar" I don't want to spend a lot of space just gushing.  I'll maybe discuss some of my favorite highlights/'touches:'
* I love the blue motif throughout (everything from several songs with 'blue' in the title or lyrics - such as "Blue Danube;" to even the color of the bible given to little John Osterman with a blue cover)
* speaking of the bible, the drawing of Adam & Eve in the book sure looked a lot like "Watchmen" artist Dave Gibbons' work
* I kind of dig that Dr. Manhattan has been living inside the body of Calvin Jelani, who goes by "Cal."  Comic fans know Superman's birth name is "Kal-el," and "Cal Jelani" has a nice symmetry with Superman's name.  Add in the plot point that a literal god-among-mortals gives up his "powers" to coexist with his love is a major plot point to SUPERMAN II, and I can't help by smirk.
* obviously there is also symmetry to plot points in Episode 8 w/"The Watchmen" comics.  The fight between Angela and Manhattan is very reminiscent to Doc's fight with Laurie in the books.  Another cute parallel is the genitalia graffiti on Dr. Manhattan in Viet Nam celebrating VVN Day is 'Watchmen Yellow.'  Also, Cal telling Angela he leaves his fate in her hands is the last line of the books (and the second time that phrase is uttered in the series, going back to Ep. 5 when Keene says it
* we finally got confirmation that Dr. Manhattan is responsible for Veidt's "imprisonment."  But I really dug that it was Veidt who wanted the isolation.
* I dug how Veidt's clocks at Karnak (his Antartica HQ) were 1) yellow and 2) set to 11:15 - far away from the 12:00 doomsday time.  Since that was post-squid, after the world had rallied together and the threat of nuclear war evaporated, it makes sense that the world if far from imminent danger.  The clock motif is a major one in the Watchmen world, and that was a nice touch.
* by my math, when Veidt tells Doc. that the 'amnesia' devise was made 30 years ago (in a parallel phrase, "I made it 30 years ago" to "I did it 35 minutes ago," the latter in the books said by Veidt in reference to the squid incident) would've meant around 6 years pre-squid.  Veidt worked on his master plan for a loooooong time!
* the "Ozymandias" action figure on Veidt's desk was a nice touch: as was the old-school computer - both of which are from the books
*  “A little elephant told me” that Jon was on Europa.  We now know that Lady Trieu knows Doc's plans.  I wonder if that falling...thing was Veidt escaping Europa?!
* Angela and Dr. Manhattan meet at a bar called "Eddy's" which feels like a nod to the comics.  The Comedian, named "Edward Blake," was in a very similar-looking bar during the Viet Nam war w/Dr. Manhattan when he murders a Vietnamese woman who claimed she was carrying his baby.  That moment in the comic was our glimpse that Dr. Manhattan was becoming quite detached from humanity in general, an attitude that we seemingly see in Episode 8.
* the author of the book Veidt is reading helped Veidt 'build' the squid in the comics
* for a few minutes I was worried we wouldn't get to see Dr. Manhattan release his power by annihilating the 7th Cavalry.  I had a big ol' grin as the racists head's exploded with a small wave of Doc's hand: similar to the books (when Doc was seen 'in battle' in Viet Nam)
* I personally loved seeing Dr. Manhattan put his godly power to work to make waffles: a nice reminder that not only can he create his version of the Garden of Eden + Adam&Eve, but he can also help out with the chores at home  :P
* IIRC Veidt's candles on the cake in the post-credit scene had 7 candles.  If you remember, Veidt wasn't in one episode (the one that featured Angela on 'nostalgia' drugs the whole time), and when you know that each time Veidt is featured on Europa is a full year it's amusing to me that by Episode 8, with Veidt missing for one ep, he has 7 candles: one for each episode (year) he's featured.  Will be curious to know how far in the past those 'years' might be compared to the modern day story line.
* I mentioned the blue motif, complete with songs w/Blue in the title.  A favorite one of mine this episode is The Fleetwoods’ “Mr. Blue” which has several pertinent lyrics:
Quote
Our guardian star lost all his glow
The day that I lost you
He lost all his glitter the day you said no
And his silver turned to blue
Like him, I am doubtful
That your love is true
But if you decide to call on me
Ask for Mr. Blue

I don't know how this series will wrap up (I'll speculate in another post), but I sure as hell am happy and excited to be along for this ride!  If I'm calling "Chernobyl" a miniseries instead of a more traditional TV series, "Watchmen" is easily my favorite new drama of 2019: if not favorite drama period.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 11:04:51 AM by perc2100 »

Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2019, 10:28:34 AM »
Where is this series headed towards: how will these storylines wrap-up in the finale that creator/EP Damon Lindelof has said is a one-and-done stand-alone 9 episode arc (that, again, could be lies has his history of lying in interviews is vast)?

Well, lets take a look at a couple things.  First, I want to say that this is by no means what I HOPE happens: this isn't the fanboy "I think/hope Rey's parents are the Emperor's children we've never heard about and if her bloodline isn't Skywalker or something then this sucks."  This is more of an educated guess/hypothesis based on my knowledge of the original "The Watchmen" comic books (not 'Before Watchmen' or 'Doomsday Clock').

So let's start with a huge unknown

* Lady Trieu
At this point, there's till very little we know about what her Millennium Clock does, her motivations, etc.  What we do know is that she's clearly a follower of Adrian Veidt, and seems to parallel that character from the books (a genius in business and science; incredibly wealthy; has a master plan; delves in cloning).  She has a plan to "save humanity," and based on "The Watchmen" comics and Adrian Veidt's character arc this motivation won't be great for everyone, at least.  I don't want to speculate doom & gloom, but recall that Veidt's plan to "save humanity" from nuclear holocaust involved dropping a space squid and using psychic brain waves that murdered millions and injured countless more.
BUT, it worked to an extent: at least the explicit goal of saving humanity from imminent nuclear war.  We learned in the series that his plan went much deeper as far as installing a 180 different POTUS and changing country's ideals (that inevitably spawned 7th Calvary and led us to our current problem: systemic problems, to paraphrase Dr. Manhattan "never end").
So I don't really have a good educated guess on this MAJOR plot thread other than past Watchmen history tells us not to go all-in trusting a rich smart person's plans to save humanity.  Add what happens w/Hooded Justice as well.  I suspect he has one more big 'move' to play before this is over but for the life of me I don't know what it would be or how he fits in w/Lady Trieu.

OK, now for a more fun bit of spitballing:
* Dr. Manhattan
Dr. Manhattan made it clear that his wife can't help him (and then the show brilliantly 'teased' us by making us think "yeah: maybe she can") and I think the finale will take Dr. Manhattan to the next stage in his evolution.  Recall his character arc so far: a smart son of a watchmaker who fled the Nazis and ended up in America.  He became a scientist and via experimentation he accidentally became Dr. Manhattan when his molecules were obliterated and he 'rebuilt' himself.  Over time he helped humanity, bringing several integral inventions and innovations to the world, helping US win the Viet Nam war.  Around this time, he started becoming disinterested in humanity and earth, realizing our problems were fairly trivial in the grand scheme of the universes.  By the end of the comics he had decided to completely leave our world to maybe do his own thing.  We learn via the series he creates his own utopia on Europa, with his own garden of Eden & his own created Adam & Eve.  We then learn he grew bored of that and came back to earth, fell in love, hid his memories of his powers from himself, lived among us as a regular human, etc.
Now he's at the heart of a plan by the white supremacist 7th Calvary, with the outcome of potentially the Calvary obliterating the Jon Osterman 'human' side of Dr. Manhattan while Senator Keene, seeming head of the 7th Calvary, fusing himself with the Dr. Manhattan god-like powers.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Manhattan has already accepted this outcome.  He's clearly an enlightened being, and I could see him accepting the fact that he will still exist, just in a different form.  Heck, he abandoned his entire identity for over a decade to live with Angela Abar and their adopted kids in Tulsa.  He might be so blase about humanity and our problems at this point that he's fine existing with Keene's "form:" he'd still be Dr. Manhattan just not the formerly Jon Osterman-Dr. Manhattan.

Remember a major theme in the books is that there aren't any boy-tied, gift-wrapped easy endings or solutions.  Some mysteries were left as such because life doesn't always have black and white answers (such as the identity of Hooded Justice, for example).  Obviously the biggest example of this ethos is the ending, where Veidt killed millions of New Yorkers for what he thought was the good of humanity: the book ended with a LOT of questions regarding whether or not Veidt's plans would change anything. 
This hypothesis regarding Dr. Manhattan would gel w/themes from the book while taking Manhattan's character arc to maybe the next logical place of evolving further and generally staying away from impacting history or humanity on his own (vs, say, making him the omnipotent Superman who saves the day with his god powers).

* Senator Keene
This is where things get fun & comic booky!
Senator Keene seems like a smart fellow.  He made a comment earlier in the series to the regards of "I'm not racist: I just believe in nationalism."  I'm paraphrasing, and in most cases I would take what he said as "I'm not racist: I'm just going to describe different words that basically say I am indeed racist."  And at first glance that's what I thought initially about Keene's words when he was monologuing w/Laurie Blake.  But I got to thinking about the overall themes of not only the comics, but also this series and I have another thought.
First, look at the themes of this series.  This series has been steeped in our countries systemic history of racism: centered on a fairly under-reported (in history books) racial incident with the Tulsa Race Riot.  The racial themes of the series seem even more prevalent than the fascist ones.  Now, that being the case, there are really only a few ways the racial themes can be resolved: 1) dark ending 2) lighter ending 3) no real ending.
The comics leaned more towards dark/no ending.  Technically there's no real resolution to what Veidt did, but what Veidt did murdered millions, cost the life of Rorschach, sent Dr. Manhattan to another world out of ambivalence, and completely fractured the relationship of the other remaining heroes (Dan Dreiberg, the Night Owl, who hasn't really been mentioned albeit hinted at being in jail; and Laurie Juspeczyk, Silk Spectre, now named FBI Agent Laurie Blake) pretty disenfranchised.  So, while there was no resolution or 'ending' to the story, we can say the comic has a dark ending.
If this series were to mimic the book and go 'dark ending,' we could see Racism winning.  If the show were to go 'no story resolution but dark ending,' we could see 7th Calvary getting defeated, but the thought of systemic racism within government still running things as a dark ending.

But what if Lindelof and his writing partner for the finale, Nick Cuse, go with a more uplifting ending?  We can speculate fairly easily about what a dark ending would be, but let's take a look at what a more hopeful, lighter ending could entail.  I mean, we live in pretty dark times right now, which the series reflects: what if the writers use the series to instill a little bit of hope (to paraphrase a favorite Christmas film: "It's Christmas Theo, it's the time of miracles!").

Keene is entrenched with the bad guys of the series, no doubt.  His diabolical plot to destroy Dr. Manhattan, take his godly form & powers, and "right the world" so to speak feels evil on its face.  But what if there's hope for Keene?  Maybe he does 'win' and obliterates Jon Osterman to take over as the 'new' Dr. Manhattan (as spit-balled above)?  What if he gains all of the power and knowledge of the omnipotent Dr. Manhattan, and REALLY sees humanity and the world for what it is when broken down to its core.
Maybe Keene-as-Manhattan become highly enlightened: not unlike Jon Osterman.  What if he legit meant, "I'm not racist..." and isn't the backwoods redneck racist the bulk of 7th Calvary seems to be, and he has slightly different plans.  Having all the powers of Manhattan could cause him to realize something as mundane and insignificant as pigmentation, or what specific plot of land someone is born on really has zero bearing on life itself or the mechanisms and workings of the universe.  It didn't take long for Manhattan to become enlightened, and even uninterested, in humanity in general.  Surely another intelligent, educated man could become enlightened about the inconsequential nature of races or nationalities fairly quickly.  What if Keene becomes enlightened and realizes the 7th Calvary is indeed illogical in its ethos and kind of defacto saves humanity just by becoming enlightened.

Heck, that could play into Watchmen comic's ethos.  Perhaps he becomes enlightened, Lady Trieu destroys him anyway: maybe she doesn't know Keene's enlightenment, or maybe she doesn't trust him or something. The audience could essentially walk away with an incredibly mixed feeling of "was that a good ending or bad ending?" just as we did from the comics.  Lady Triue would be both the savior and the villain, just as Ozymandias was in the books, and perhaps Abar walks away disenfranchised from the whole deal (her heart being broken w/out her Kal-el, er, Cal).
Side-bar: what if we never saw Dr. Manhattan originally in "A God Walks Into Abar," when he first walks into the bar to meet Angela, because it will be revealed in the finale that he was Manhattan 2.0: Keene.  If Dr. Manhattan truly exists across all time/space/multi-verses, maybe Keene and Osterman can co-exist to an extent and the timelines from the penultimate episodes are even more skewed than we think they are right now?  We've only seen Manhattan-as-Cal so far, but maybe we're really dealing with multiple-timeline-Manhattan who's both Keene AND Osterman at various times, doing what's needed to be done in order for the events to fall into place.

* Complete Unknowns (to me)
- Hooded Justice: how is he entangled w/Lady Trieu and her plans?  Will good ol' Hooded Justice make one more triumphant save/act?  Maybe he'll reconcile with his granddaughter by saving her while sacrificing himself (or maybe sacrifice himself trying to save Osterman Manhattan).
- Angela Abar: she seems to track closest to Dan Dreiberg/Night Owl from the books - a sort of pseudo-willing pawn.  She could accept the facts of what transpired, knowing she can't really stop it, regardless of her effort but walk away from being a cop/vigilante
- Adrian Veidt: this is the most intriguing of the unknowns.  I have truly loved...RELISHED...every moment of his Europa utopia/hell and I can't wait to see how it ends for him.  Part of me wonders if that thing falling from space wasn't Veidt finally escaping Europa and Trieu has been working with him to combat Keene-as-Manhattan (the two of them working together to come up with the Manhattan-killing tech could be interesting). 
OR, what if somehow Lady Trieu merges Veidt w/Manhattan with her Millennium Clock and HE'S who interacts w/Angela in Viet Nam before fusing w/Cal (maybe Dr. Manhattan couldn't truly fuse with someone until Lady Trieu "teaches him" via fusing Veidt & Manhattan).  Veidt has been searching for upper enlightenment for the existence of the Watchmen 'franchise,' and perhaps this is a natural course for his character arc.

Wow, that's a lot of words, huh (good thing this website pays me by the word, amiright?!).  The beauty of this series is it's given us a plethora of things to think about and speculate on.  I hate that this show is ending already, but I love how it's been PACKED with themes, incredibly fascinating characters, and situations.  There is so much to wrap up in one last episode I can't wait to see where the writers have taken us.  They've brilliantly played in the Watchmen universe thematically while also gone in their unique directions.  I love how Agent Blake's character is both so different from where Laurie was in the books, yet feels like a very natural evolution of her character arc post-comic events: same w/Veidt.  What I originally thought was Manhattan punishing Veidt for the murders, then flipped on its head as being a sort of quid pro quo favor/reward for Veidt (and then him growing quickly bored with the situation) is a brilliant evolution of his story!  I dig how the writers have dropped hints regarding Dan Dreiberg being jailed.  This is such a well-done show that I originally was incredibly hesitant to watch: even at Comic-Con, when the first trailer dropped, I remember thinking "this looks interesting, at least: and Don Johnson!" and now just five months later I'm declaring this my favorite show of 2019 and its' not even close competition-wise. 

I look forward to seeing how wildly wrong these guesses are, and seeing what incredibly different ideas the writers deliver us.  As always, please chime in with your thoughts on the series in general, your guesses on how this wraps up, etc.  This has been HBO most popular show, and I kind of find it difficult to believe they'll let it go after one fairly short season.  We'll see if the finale leaves the door open for continued stories with these characters, or if the show feels final (or...realistically...as final as the comics did, I suppose).



Offline mark

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2019, 11:25:08 AM »
FINALLY got to watch the latest episode last night. This is one of the few series my wife and I watch together and our schedules have not been aligned. I was really curious to see how she would react to a Dr Manhattan themed episode since that's the one character she has found confusing.

But it was great, we both loved it and I thought the structure of it, combining a long explanation of Manhattan's reality with the love story, was really well executed.  I keep comparing it to the Sissy Spacek-centric episode of Castle Rock in season 1.

Looking Glass has presumably infiltrated the Calvary and will show up next episode. Also the show has so far been pretty on the nose with foreshadowing. For the example the early hints that Cal was Dr Manhattan were so obvious I didn't take them seriously. So I won't be surprised if he gives his powers to Angela with an egg or something.

Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2019, 10:22:17 AM »
I'm typically not one to like being wrong, but in these types of instances I love it.  The most audacious, well-written, acted & produced season (series?) of television in a long time stuck the landing wonderfully!  In hindsight the 7th Calvary were relatively harmless: in hindsight this seems obvious.  When Looking Glass took out half a dozen Calvary members I initially interpreted that as him being a BAMF: looking back now, Tim Blake Nelson being able to do that seems much more indicative that the Calvary were just a bunch of dopey hicks.
Lady Trieu turned out to be the Big Bad.  Or was she?  Just like Adrian Veidt in the comics (and in the show), the bad deed was predicated on saving the world.  And like Vedit, Lady Treu accomplished her goal.  Senator Keene not only didn't achieve sentience, didn't achieve being a big blue god (though he achieved the same level of silliness wearing man-panties, though had a point about not swinging his junk around), but he instead achieved becoming a stream and pool of gore.  The Cyclops leadership was about an inept as the mask-wearing soldiers: and just as easily dispatched.

Did Lady Trieu need to die: to be stopped in her tracks?  The thought process fell back on the concept of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely," and therefore Lady Trieu couldn't be trusted to wield the god-like power.  Veidt & Blake drew from their experiences with the assumption that Trieu couldn't be trusted.  I think Veidt jumped in 1) just to have a new challenge for himself and 2) to purely show-up Trieu after her 'rerun' esque comment earlier with the squids.  Like the books, Lady Trieu's fate was a shade of grey: not a savior, not necessarily a villain.

The finale handled racism in a much more understated way than I spitballed: and obviously for the better.  Hood Justice instead led the finale to where it began, in the theater he had to leave as a child amidst the Tulsa Race Riots.  Not only did he bring closure to Angela's family issues, but also to Dr. Manhattan's story arc.  I loved his play of words directly from Dr. Manhattan, leaving the audience one last bit of Doc's "time is a flat circle" logic.

And how about that last scene?!  Dr. Manhattan's seeming domesticity of making waffles really only setup Angela ingesting his essence in order to become Dr. Manhattan 2.0.  As I was watching that final, purposefully drawn-out last scene by the pool, part of me wanted to see her drop to the bottom of the pool and end with her cursing while the other part wanted (pretty much knew) it would end with a smash cut to black.  Some folks may see that as an open-ended type of mystery ending, but I think it's clear Angela would've likely walked on water.  I mean, the main key art of the series featured Sister Night in an incredibly blue hue ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ).
There's also the foreshadowing near the end (see the easter eggs below).

Again, the comic remix felt exactly like that: something original yet very much in tune with the comics.  The writing of this series blew me away, and just like the books what started as a gritty, noir story morphed into a way comic booky sci-fi tale complete with mumbo jumbo science.  I can't say enough about this series, and it really clicked with me.  The only kind of bummer I would say is I wish Looking Glass had more to do in the back end of the series, if for no other reason than I dug the character and Tim Blake Nelson is an incredible actor.  Of course his character wasn't a main focal point of the narrative, and I get that (and I'm not complaining), I just wish we could've had more time w/the character.

Some fun easter eggs from the final episode:
* Adrian Veidt is just like a lot of us, using the same lame password for everything (his "Ramseys II" password was guessed/used by Dan Dreiberg & Rorschach when they hacked into the same type of computer as they uncovered his squid plot late in the comics).  I'm amused that the smartest man in the world a) has an easily guessable password and b) uses it for multiple things: just like a lot of average and below-average intelligence people.
* Veidt stills has it when it comes to catching bullets!  In the comics he bragged of being able to do this, and in the final episode he finally gets to show his skills when Julie takes a shot at him and he does in deed catch it.  It's awesome to know that nearly 40 years later Veidt can still catch a bullet
* "The end is Nigh," from Veidt's speech, was a popular "sooth-saying" slogan used on a sign by Rorschach in the comics: also a slogan HBO used in promotional material for the show
* the Senator's man panties were also used by Dr. Manhattan in the comics, probably for the same reasoning Keene Jr. gave.  I kinda like the contrast to Manhattan being buck naked while Senator felt the need to cover up: it kind of contrasts the enlightenment that Doc just doesn't care about such silly things as modesty when he has multiple time frames to coexist in
* "All we ever see of stars are their old photographs” was a nice touch when Doc was having issues keeping track of what time he's experiencing while imprisoned.  That phrase was inner monologue during the 'origin' issue of the comics (#4, IIRC, the same one that "Watchmen" episode 8 took so much inspiration from).  There were a few other less obvious references as well to the comics in that sense.
* Archie!!!  Nite Owl's actual ship makes an appearance again, with confirmation that authorities adapted much of Dreiberg's technology.  I know we saw the modernized variation in an earlier episode, but seeing the actual Archie, kept up by Veidt, was a nice touch
* Looking Glass's weak stomach.  Just like Rorschach, who puked when Dr. Manhattan teleported him, Looking Glass also puked.  It's cute symmetry that the character most similar to the comics' Rorschach (not the racist hillbillys) had the same ailments.
* "DR M" = what the marquee of the "DReaMland theater" marquee reads when Angela, her grandpa/Hooded Justice, and her kids emerge.  Seems like a nice wink to Angela's fate to me.
* "See How They Fly," the episode title, is a quote from The Beatles' song "I Am The Walrus."  The song was covered in the final credits, with the prominent line "I am the Eggman" in the chorus: an obvious reference to the last scene.  Also, there's this line from the song: 
Quote
Mr. City Policeman sitting, Pretty little policemen in a row.  See how they fly, like Lucy in the sky, See how they run.
How pertinent.

That's it for "Watchmen," I think.  The writers and producers expertly made a series that felt like a finite story line, complete w/a beginning, middle, and end.  The more ambiguous details feel very in-step with the comics' philosophy that life is ambiguous w/out black and white finality (short of death).  Just like the comics we're left to wonder what the blue god will do from here, and what will happen to the few people who know the truth about Veidt & the squid (will they actually arrest him?): and who knows what will become of Lady Trieu's mom/daughter Bian.
Are those interesting enough threads to continue with a Season 2?  I personally don't think so at this time.  Are there things that can be done in this universe independent of the characters and situations we saw in Season 1?  Possibly.  I wouldn't have had any desire to see a sequel to Watchmen yet Exec. Producer Damon Lindelof and his creative staff knocked it out of the park here, so just like the comics I'll maintain the mindset of Dr. Manhattan:
Quote
'In the end'? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:59:50 AM by perc2100 »

Offline miclpea

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2019, 11:39:27 AM »
If you rewatch the series, watch for the Easter eggs with the eggs which is so meta!


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Offline Mario Wario

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2019, 05:52:04 PM »
Awesome series! I hope we get a season 2.
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Offline Pyramid

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2019, 08:19:35 PM »
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Awesome series! I hope we get a season 2.

I think we absolutely will get a second season!  This show was phenomenal!  I could watch a show on just the exploits of Hooded Justice and how he combats Cyclops!  The two episodes preceding the finale are easily my favorite episodes that I have ever watched on TV!  The episodes in and of themselves are top notch quality AND the social commentary they provide is astounding and very apt.  Love this show more than I thought I would!
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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: Today at 08:38:07 AM »

Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 08:45:25 AM »
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If you rewatch the series, watch for the Easter eggs with the eggs which is so meta!


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Beastie Boys' "Egg Man" as the credits song after Episode 2 is my favorite one  :P

Offline perc2100

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2019, 08:51:52 AM »
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I think we absolutely will get a second season!  This show was phenomenal!  I could watch a show on just the exploits of Hooded Justice and how he combats Cyclops!  The two episodes preceding the finale are easily my favorite episodes that I have ever watched on TV!  The episodes in and of themselves are top notch quality AND the social commentary they provide is astounding and very apt.  Love this show more than I thought I would!
Episode 8 was so great, IMO: I think that episode is the one that perfectly captures the 'essence' of the comics (again, especially the 4th issue of the comics that's Dr. Manhattan's origin and very much jumps all over the map time-wise with the "it's Dec. 17 2019 and I'm gushing about Watchmen..." stuff).

I truly hope that if HBO goes a second season it's with different show runners and characters and whatnot.  Maybe make Agent Blake the through-character, as she goes to another part of the country investigating masked vigilantes or something (maybe make "Dr. Sister Night" or whatever the 'Adrian Veidt' esque character, where we get a short segment in her life throughout the series but she doesn't really come into play until the very end).  I dunno if Veidt and/or POTUS Redford getting arrested would be an interesting season, or a season focusing on Abar becoming Dr. Manhattan would be that intriguing to me.  But if HBO played this like True Detective, and treated different seasons as anthology could be really cool: I wouldn't mind playing in the 'Watchmen' universe more!

But I think it would be gutsy if HBO just let this be a one-and-done season.  I think this season has somehow overshadowed the brilliant "Chernobyl," as well as the divided "Game of Thrones" final season so it doesn't seem like great business logic for HBO to not go back for seconds.

BTW, how great were HBO's offerings this year.  Just off the top of my head I can think of:
Watchmen
Chernobyl
True Detective Season 3
Barry Season 2
Game of Thrones final season
VEEP final season
Succession season 2

Really strong year for HBO series
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 08:55:06 AM by perc2100 »

Offline rabbitwarren

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Re: WATCHMEN series (spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2020, 04:23:03 PM »
Currently rereading Before Watchmen and If they do another season, I’d love to see a parallel story between Veidt’s backstory and someone who is getting into the vigilante business and going deeper into where is the line between savior and tyrant.