Author Topic: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid  (Read 60318 times)

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1230 on: July 28, 2021, 10:20:30 AM »
Today Pfizer released the data from their ongoing study that persuaded them to recommend a third dose.

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Offline Andrew Costa Mesa

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1231 on: July 28, 2021, 05:00:50 PM »
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Today Pfizer released the data from their ongoing study that persuaded them to recommend a third dose.

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OK, me and my family are sold on a booster.  I hope Moderna gets on the bandwagon because that’s what me and my mother got, although my brother and sister-in-law got Pfizer.

I belong to a pro-mask/pro-vaccine group on Facebook and this is what someone said in response:

“I'd like to see someone besides Pfizer recommend this.  Pfizer obviously would like people to get boosters so they can sell more vaccines and make more money.”
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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1232 on: Today at 04:28:45 PM »

Offline Chris

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1232 on: July 28, 2021, 07:33:21 PM »
Yeah, if we need boosters that is not a big deal to me even if we need annual boosters.  The time it takes now to get the vaccine is the roundtrip from the parking lot to go in and get a shot that takes 2 seconds with a 15 minute wait at CVS and back out to the car.

It's not really a inconvenience from my perspective.

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1233 on: July 28, 2021, 08:32:44 PM »
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OK, me and my family are sold on a booster.  I hope Moderna gets on the bandwagon because that’s what me and my mother got, although my brother and sister-in-law got Pfizer.

I belong to a pro-mask/pro-vaccine group on Facebook and this is what someone said in response:

“I'd like to see someone besides Pfizer recommend this.  Pfizer obviously would like people to get boosters so they can sell more vaccines and make more money.”

The person that said that hasn't been paying attention.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, both the NHS and the Health Ministry in Israel recommended a booster before Pfizer came out publicly.  If money is motivation then they have every motivation to not recommend boosters since it'll cost them money.  I've also said this before, Pfizer will sell every single dose it can make booster or not.  There's no extra money to be made.  So that's an erroneous argument.

The world is not as that person thinks.  It's not like it's portrayed in the movies.  I've worked in government, industry and academia.  I've encountered the most people willing to do the right thing in industry.  Pure science is not the altruistic paragon of virtue that people believe.  It's a cage match knife fight.  In the end, it's about getting grants.  It's about money.  You do what can be funded.  That's often not what's best.  In industry it's all about getting it right.  It's all about making something useful.  Since that's what sells.  Getting it wrong has serious consequences.

Pfizer's most valuable asset is it's reputation.  It's brand.  That's worth far more than any doses of a covid vaccine.  Doses that will sell anyways.

My 2 doses were Pfizer.  I'd like Moderna for my third dose.  Mixing vaccines has it's advantages.  Moderna has more mcg per shot. :)

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Yeah, if we need boosters that is not a big deal to me even if we need annual boosters.  The time it takes now to get the vaccine is the roundtrip from the parking lot to go in and get a shot that takes 2 seconds with a 15 minute wait at CVS and back out to the car.

It's not really a inconvenience from my perspective.

If it becomes an annual thing, it'll probably be just another addition to the yearly flu vaccine.  Work on that has already been underway.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 08:40:35 PM by chocolateshake »

Offline TardisMom

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1234 on: July 29, 2021, 08:52:32 AM »
For those paying lots of attention to the info:  At one point they were saying the Moderna vaccine could last for years.  Does the Pfizer data impact that?  Are they thinking Pfizer and Moderna will have similar efficacy long term?  I'm really asking because I'm traveling overseas in September and was vaccinated in February, do I need a 3rd shot?

Offline Miss Kitty

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1235 on: July 29, 2021, 01:22:27 PM »
Great question! There is a study I just read that says one of them recommended a booster. But honestly it looks like different info

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Offline SteveD

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1236 on: July 29, 2021, 01:45:12 PM »
One month ago, NY Times on June 28... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.

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The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday.


Offline TardisMom

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1237 on: July 29, 2021, 02:59:52 PM »
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One month ago, NY Times on June 28... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.

Yes, thanks, that's the article I'm remembering.  But now the Israeli data is indicating the Pfizer immunity is wearing off fairly quickly? I hope the Israelis are wrong on this.

Online semigeekgirl

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1238 on: July 29, 2021, 03:54:26 PM »
As far as I can tell, it's not that the vaccines are "wearing off", it's just that they are less protective against Delta than they were against the previous strains. So as Delta becomes the dominant variant they become less effective. Right now between 20-25% of the positive case in LA County are fully vaccinated people, according to our public heath department. Most of those people have no or very mild symptoms, but they still contracted covid. Delta is just that much more virulent.

Offline TardisMom

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1239 on: July 29, 2021, 05:29:16 PM »
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As far as I can tell, it's not that the vaccines are "wearing off", it's just that they are less protective against Delta than they were against the previous strains. So as Delta becomes the dominant variant they become less effective. Right now between 20-25% of the positive case in LA County are fully vaccinated people, according to our public heath department. Most of those people have no or very mild symptoms, but they still contracted covid. Delta is just that much more virulent.

That makes a lot of sense.  Come on, dang it people, get vaccinated!

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1240 on: July 29, 2021, 10:19:42 PM »
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As far as I can tell, it's not that the vaccines are "wearing off", it's just that they are less protective against Delta than they were against the previous strains. So as Delta becomes the dominant variant they become less effective. Right now between 20-25% of the positive case in LA County are fully vaccinated people, according to our public heath department. Most of those people have no or very mild symptoms, but they still contracted covid. Delta is just that much more virulent.

Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Delta does make it even worse, but the vaccines were already "wearing off" before delta became a factor.  That paper from the ongoing study that was released a couple of days ago had a data cutoff date in mid March.  That was before delta was a significant factor in that population.  So the vaccines are wearing off, delta or not.  Which was expected all along.

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For those paying lots of attention to the info:  At one point they were saying the Moderna vaccine could last for years.  Does the Pfizer data impact that? 

That's the guess.  We'll know in a few years. :)

Both that guess and the more recent Pfizer data can be right at the same time.  They are fundamentally addressing different things.  One is protection against infection and the other is protection against serious illness and death.  That durable protection for years is against serious illness and death.  The latest data is more about protection against infection.  That has dramatically fallen.  Protection against serious illness and death is still high.  So what seems to be happening is that antibody levels are waning and thus protection against infection.  Due to the vaccines, your body still recognizes covid so once infected it will produce new antibodies to stave off serious illness and death.  But that means while your body is working on that, you can still get pretty sick.

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Are they thinking Pfizer and Moderna will have similar efficacy long term?  I'm really asking because I'm traveling overseas in September and was vaccinated in February, do I need a 3rd shot?

In general Pfizer and Moderna are very similar.  AZ and J&J are very similar.  There's a tiny bit of data out of LA comparing infection rates in the fully vaccinated between Pfizer, Moderna and J&J.  The infection rates are tiny but there does seem to be a difference.  Moderna is better than Pfizer which is better than J&J.

We still have to look at overseas data for the most part.  The US still doesn't test very much.  We do a small fraction of testing that the UK does.  Importantly, until a couple of days ago, we specifically didn't care if the fully vaccinated got infected.  We were only concerned with hospitalization and death.  So the recommendation was that if you were fully vaccinated you should only get tested if you had symptoms.  That changed at the same time as the masking recommendation.  Now the fully vaccinated should get a test and self isolate if they think they've been exposed to covid.  So hopefully we should have our own data to work with in a few weeks to months.

That's why all the talk is about Pfizer.  The UK and Israel also went big with Pfizer.  They are also good at testing and contact tracing so there is data to talk about.  Not so with Moderna.  The US is where that was widely used.  But we don't really test or contact trace that much so there's not much data to talk about.

I think it's inevitable we will get a booster recommendation at some point.  But as we have all pandemic long, we lag.  Israel just expanded their third dose program to anyone 60 and over.  I think the NHS is planning to start their third dose effort shortly.

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1241 on: July 29, 2021, 11:55:18 PM »
So this reporting on an internal presentation at the CDC is why the CDC reversed the mask recommendation and changed testing policy a couple of days ago.  To sum up, delta is much more contagious and leads to more severe illness.  Based on the reporting, the CDC publicly is still sugar coating what they know internally.  There's a mismatch.

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What appears new to the CDC, the rest of the world had already known that for a while.  A while back I posted how an overseas immunologist said that delta to a fully vaccinated person is like the original strain to an unvaccinated person in terms of infection and transmission.  Based on this reporting, the CDC acknowledges that now.  It's embarrassing to hear how experts outside the US talk about the CDC now.  A once revered organization is now mocked.  One reviewed the CDC changes from a couple of days ago point by point and said that all that has been known for a while.  They said it's great that the CDC has finally caught up.  But they also pointed out that the CDC website that was updated just 2 days ago still says that the level of protection against infection in Israel is still 90%.  Even though Israel publicly reported a couple of weeks ago that it's much lower.  They concluded that the CDC is just out of date.

Offline TardisMom

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1242 on: July 30, 2021, 08:14:39 AM »
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Offline perc2100

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1243 on: July 30, 2021, 11:37:36 AM »
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So this reporting on an internal presentation at the CDC is why the CDC reversed the mask recommendation and changed testing policy a couple of days ago.  To sum up, delta is much more contagious and leads to more severe illness.  Based on the reporting, the CDC publicly is still sugar coating what they know internally.  There's a mismatch.

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What appears new to the CDC, the rest of the world had already known that for a while.  A while back I posted how an overseas immunologist said that delta to a fully vaccinated person is like the original strain to an unvaccinated person in terms of infection and transmission.  Based on this reporting, the CDC acknowledges that now.  It's embarrassing to hear how experts outside the US talk about the CDC now.  A once revered organization is now mocked.  One reviewed the CDC changes from a couple of days ago point by point and said that all that has been known for a while.  They said it's great that the CDC has finally caught up.  But they also pointed out that the CDC website that was updated just 2 days ago still says that the level of protection against infection in Israel is still 90%.  Even though Israel publicly reported a couple of weeks ago that it's much lower.  They concluded that the CDC is just out of date.
The CDC's website is obviously problematic if its outdated.  But CDC can only report/make decisions based on their own findings.  Science, and scientists/doctors, are incredibly methodologists when it comes to their work: especially published work.  They're not going to jump all-in on another agency's report before doing their own studies that either correlate or refute others' findings.  While I agree CDC throughout this pandemic has dropped many balls along the way, criticizing the agency for not embracing other countries' findings w/out conducting their own thorough research sounds like something someone who doesn't know a ton about science methodology (or is taking a lot for granted).  I'm speaking to whom you're referring to here
Quote
One reviewed the CDC changes from a couple of days ago point by point and said that all that has been known for a while.  They said it's great that the CDC has finally caught up.
which is interesting since essentially they mean "it's great the US has caught up w/Delta that the rest of the world was ravaged by first."

Don't get me wrong: there is a plethora of blame and finger-pointing and whatnot to go around with this pandemic mess, and specifically the mess in our country; &  the CDC is not blameless.  But piling on them in this instance (again, not saying _you_ are, just folks in general) seems like misplaced ire IMO.  I'm glad they're finally sharing this data, and I question why this was released concurrently when they changed their masking recommendations (ie "we're chasing our masking guidance because of this current study which found...").  It's bad enough we have sheer stupidity within the US Federal Government publicly bashing the CDC's credibility in one of the most blatant cases of "lacking self awareness" I've seen in awhile: causing even more trust issues at a time when people need to just get their damn shots so we can move on.  Vermont's data for hospitalizations (incredibly minimal) and deaths (zero) for the last week while looking at their vaccination rate (80%+ - the highest vaccination rate of any state) is pretty damned great proof that science works.  And that includes (broadly/generally) CDC's role in it

Offline chocolateshake

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Re: Reports & check ins in the age of Covid
« Reply #1244 on: July 30, 2021, 12:18:36 PM »
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The CDC's website is obviously problematic if its outdated.  But CDC can only report/make decisions based on their own findings.  Science, and scientists/doctors, are incredibly methodologists when it comes to their work: especially published work.  They're not going to jump all-in on another agency's report before doing their own studies that either correlate or refute others' findings.  While I agree CDC throughout this pandemic has dropped many balls along the way, criticizing the agency for not embracing other countries' findings w/out conducting their own thorough research sounds like something someone who doesn't know a ton about science methodology (or is taking a lot for granted).

The CDC doesn't do their own studies about how infectious covid is in Israel among Israelis.  They can only report what Israel reports about the situation there.  Right now Israel is reporting that to be about 40%.  The CDC is saying that it's 90%.

What you are taking about is a NDH attitude.  That would be great if we led the world.  We don't.  We lag.  This entire pandemic, many times the rest of the world has conducted studies earlier.  They state findings, we are openly dubious about them.  Then a few months later we find the same thing with great fanfare about our new discovery.  This has happened time and time again during this pandemic.  The CDC did it again this week when they said they made these new conclusions based on new data.  New to us.  Old news to the rest of the world.  But we can't know for sure since unlike other countries that did show the data they used to make their decisions, the CDC simply said it's based on “CDC COVID-19 Response Team, unpublished data, 2021.”  Which has led researchers from around the world, including in the US, to ask "Where's the beef?"

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I'm speaking to whom you're referring to here  which is interesting since essentially they mean "it's great the US has caught up w/Delta that the rest of the world was ravaged by first."

What they are saying is that we gave you the heads up about delta.  We hoped you wouldn't make the same mistakes we did.  Why didn't you listen?

Along those lines, there was a US based study that was released today that confirms what has been previously reported overseas.  This study found that 74% of the infected in this incidence were fully vaccinated.  This matches what was reported out of Singapore earlier.  Also they found that the viral load is similar between the fully vaccinated and the unvaccinated.  Which effects how infectious someone is.  It was hoped that the viral load would be lower in the fully vaccinated and thus transmission would be rare.  As has been reported all over the world for the last few months, the fully vaccinated can be infectious.

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« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 01:51:49 PM by chocolateshake »